Edge not what I wanted (was: add on for topic below)

[Rangerdave]

I didn't want to hijack the earlier thread so started this one.
I am making a knife (my first) for my dad out of a file (simmons file to be exact).I annealed ( to nonmagnetic and slow cooled in the forge with it off). Then shaped the blade. Then thought I was normalizing did the same thing 3 times. I didn't let it aircool (my mistake I think) I left it in the forge again. Then I semipolished/ hand sanded the blade. At this point I thought I was good and quenched in motor oil. Used motor oil due to impatience and thats what I had. (I followed safety precautions....) Once cool I tempered at 375 for 2 cycles at an hour.

Big issue/ question.
I ran the blade on a ceramic hand sharpener and the sharpened part doesn't look smooth. It also almost feels like there are burrs on the edge. I cant take a pic that will show this without magnification. Is this caused by stressed metal and inconsistent grain size from normalizing improperly?
Can I redo the normalize, quench and temper or do I need to anneal again also? I assume I can redo and all will be ok just not sure if anneal is needed too. By the way I'm using propane forge. Should I try to get the temps without the blower? Not sure if getting to hot to fast can cause issues.

Thanks
RD

[dablacksmith]

probably too hard you didnt temper it at high enough temp ... file steel is generally a fairly high carbon content and probably what is happening is its so hard that when you get to a fine edge it breaks leaving a ragged edge.. with out being able to look at it its hard to tell tho ..i have pretty much quit using old files for blades and instead i use um to make the edge of a tomahawk . good luck

[Rangerdave]

Any suggestion on the temper temp? I have spent a fair amount of time and my dad actually requested the file knife.

[Maillemaker]

Well, you can always cook the blade at a higher temperature and make it softer. Try increasing the heat in small increments, say 25 deg. and see what the result is. Although it would take more time in the short run, your caution would save you from re-hardening and tempering all over again.

[Rich Hale]

First thing I would do is use a fine cut file and try and take material off the edge of the blade. If the file skates like it is on glass it is to hard and you need to temper again...like said above, I would tlry 400f for half hour and file test again. If when you try and file it does remove material fairly eays it is too soft. Back to the beginning. I keep a file right next to the anvil whben I harden a blde and when I take it from quench I test it it. If the file does not skate something needs redone. I can trust that you have read the heat treat sitickies to give an idea of what is going on during this HT process.

[Rangerdave]

Yes I read the ht info and researched more in other websites. I think I am going to redo the entire process just for the heck of it. It won't hurt for the experience. Like I said it's the very first one I've done so maybe two's a charm. Thanks for the inputs. I will do the file skate test. Not sure I read that anywhere.

[Rangerdave]

Yesterday I reheated to non magnetic and left it in the forge to slow cool. Took it out this morning put an edge on the blade with fine ceramic sharpener and although it is not as bad it still has areas with the same issue. I tried to take a pic and it won't turn out to where it can be seen. I will try heating it again today and slow cooling again and see if it changes tomorrow.

[Maillemaker]

Wait, you normalized it and then tried to sharpen the blade? This could be a problem when you harden the blade again (the edge could warp or crack when it that thin). However, your steel should be quite soft now, after normalizing. Maybe you hammered the teeth of the file down to the edge, and now as you sharpen, the irregularities you feel could be he hammered-down teeth.

[Rangerdave]

I never hit with a hammer just did stock removal. It's too late for the wait. When I quench again if it cracks I will have to chalk it up to experience and cry thru the learning curve. Nothing like learning the hard way, but I will remember (for sure) for the times to come. I will let you know how it turns out.
Thanks
RD

[bigfootnampa]

Actually you annealed it then... that is NOT normalizing. It should only be annealed if you want it soft so as to do lots of grinding/filing. Annealing deliberately promotes large grain sizes and is having the opposite effect of normalizing. NOW you should normalize before hardening and then tempering! Normalize at least twice then heat to critical and quench then temper.

[Rangerdave]

bigfootnampa your are correct. I slow cooled after heat (annealed). I thought I had to redo the entire process from the beginning. I will normalize tomorrow and pray for a good quench and temper.

[MattBower]

Make sure to preheat your oil to 120 or 130 degrees F. File steel is pretty shallow-hardening, generally, and shallow hardening steel wants a fast quench. Cold oil is slow. I'm actually wondering if you failed to successfully harden it the first time. That'd explain why you're finding it easy to push up burrs on the edge.

[Rangerdave]

I didn't think about that. I didn't warm the oil. will have to get a hot plate or something before trying that, and switch to olive or peanut oil. Don't really want to be cooking motor oil. I still have some normalizing to do so I can get what I need later. Thanks for the info.

[s meyer]

There is the possibility that the steal is unhardenable. Not all simmons files are high carbon. Sum newer files are just case hardened . If the file is w1 or 1095 which most good files are you need to quinch in fast oil so be sure to heat the oil like previously mentioned. You also need to go frum the forge to oil as fast as you can so you don't lose to much heat. Then check the edge after quenching with another file. It should slide or skate along the edge If it bites into the edge at all you didn't achieve hardness. after heat treating sharpen the edge and test by chopping on hard wood. Then check the edge . If the dge has chips in it than it is to hard and you need to re heat treat at a higher temp. if the edge rolled over or dulled than it is to soft and you will have to re quench with faster quenchant possibly water. or the steal can't be hardened. Hope this helps

[ThomasPowers]

I usually heat the oil by placing a good sized piece of heated steel in it---I have a couple of pieces with a 1/8" wire attached to them so I can lower them deep in the quench tank and hang them off the edge.

I heat the steel in my forge.

[Rangerdave]

great idea. never thought of heating steel and putting it in the oil. The normalize went well. After annealing I had massive scale built up. Sanded with 220 and it came off good. Did some research on scale build up and found good info here. Normalized and got it right no scale. Will quench tomorrow. Many thanks again. Will update once quenched.

RD

[MattBower]

There is the possibility that the steal is unhardenable. Not all simmons files are high carbon.

It may be true that not all files are high carbon steel, but I'd be surprised if not all Simonds files are. Simonds is an excellent brand -- noticeably better than Nicholson, in my experience. (That's compared to new Nicholsons. I think the older Nicholsons were a cut above what they're now making -- not that what they're now making is bad.) I have never heard of Simmons files.

[Rangerdave]

That was my screw up. It is a Simonds. I mistyped simmons.

[MattBower]

That's sort of what I thought.

Simonds makes excellent files. I'm sure they're very good quality steel. But the file steels I have had analyzed were all pretty shallow hardening, meaning they need a relatively fast quench to achieve maximum hardness.

[Rangerdave]

For some reason I keep getting error 500 something when I try to post pics. I requenched today and did the warm oil trick. I think it worked well. Did skate with the file. I am tempering it now. Will do 2 cycles at 400 for an hour and see how it looks. I think I am good though. I will try and figure out the pic thing so I can post finished product.

Many thanks to all for the help.
RD

[Frank Turley]

Let's assume the Simonds file is high carbon steel.
On the RISING heat, if you don't reach critical temperature, a medium cherry red, you will not be annealing, normalizing, or hardening. Critical temperature is a little above where the steel loses magnetism. When normalizing, you let it air cool from critical by placing it on a non-reactive material like a fire brick or a pile of coke...not on cold metal. My opinion is that you don't need to normalize 3 times; that's a bunch of smoke and mirrors. It's best not to anneal, because the metal retains large carbides which are undesirable. I've quenched blades without pre-heating the oil. Heating the oil causes the oil to withdraw heat more rapidly than room temperature oil, because the viscosity changes. Some guys pre-heat the oil. Some don't.

Do not overheat, say to a lemon, and let the heats run backwards to cherry red. You will retain a coarse grain structure, making a weaker final product.

[MattBower]

Let's assume the Simonds file is high carbon steel.
On the RISING heat, if you don't reach critical temperature, a medium cherry red, you will not be annealing, normalizing, or hardening. Critical temperature is a little above where the steel loses magnetism. When normalizing, you let it air cool from critical by placing it on a non-reactive material like a fire brick or a pile of coke...not on cold metal. My opinion is that you don't need to normalize 3 times; that's a bunch of smoke and mirrors. It's best not to anneal, because the metal retains large carbides which are undesirable. I've quenched blades without pre-heating the oil. Heating the oil causes the oil to withdraw heat more rapidly than room temperature oil, because the viscosity changes. Some guys pre-heat the oil. Some don't.

Do not overheat, say to a lemon, and let the heats run backwards to cherry red. You will retain a coarse grain structure, making a weaker final product.

I agree, Frank, that a traditional slow-cool anneal for steels above .8% carbon is counterproductive, for the reasons you mention. (It is worth mentioning that sources such as the Heat Treater's Guide generally do not recommend that sort of treatment for these steels.) I disagree that multiple normalizing cycles are smoke and mirrors, at least for simple steels. That's probably true for many tool steels, which tend to have alloying elements that do a very good job of "pinning" the grain boundaries and preventing grain growth. Even Aldo Bruno's vanadium-enhanced 1084 resists grain growth surprisingly well -- enough so that I know of some folks who've had trouble hardening it after the triple-normalizing routine. But for simple steels normalizing absolutely can make a difference; I have seen it with my own eyes, and you can, too: http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/47099/Normalization-Grain-Size-Control-Experiment-----normalize

I have also oil quenched steel without preheating the oil. Some steels are sufficiently deep-hardening that it doesn't matter. But some are sufficiently shallow hardening that it does matter.

[basher]

oil temp does indeed have a great effect upon how fast the oil will draw heat from the steel as you quench it, and in a file steel which is usually something low alloy and low hardening such as w1 w2 or 1095 you need a pretty quick oil and thin edge to get more than a mm or two of hardening at the edge.

ht is not a general thing , it changes from steel to steel .

tripple normalising is certainly not smoke and mirrors ! one normalisation makes a difference ..sure....2 or 3 make more of a difference . It's basic modern good practice of you are forging blades.

it does not have to be complicated , I would always make a little test blade if you are using scrap steel, you can then play around with that to get the ht rite on your real blade.

[ThomasPowers]

Normalization pretty much like everything else in smithing is ALLOY dependent! The ASM handbook will tell you NOT to normalize S-1; I looked it up when I got ssome S-1 to make tools from. Normalizing things that should not be normalized makes them worse even if people think everything should be triple normalized before hardening. Some alloys *need* it; some alloys it doesn't matter and some it's *bad* for them. Look up the alloy you are using---or make a good guess if you don't know.

However in generally the fancier the alloy the better it is to find out the suggested heat treatment and follow it closely to get the best results!

[Rhyfelwr]

Did you forge it down to the edge? I have ran into problems with files having a file edge on the side of the file and big dummy me forging it into the edge. In other words, when you grind it back you have a ragged edge.  If you did, grind it flat on the edge and regrind the blade bevels.