Portland Barrel Company Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I am curious about the use, historically, of herbs in the slack tub. I have found a few scant references to this practice and am wondering if there is any real merit to this, or whether herbs could impart some benefit to the metal being cooled, hardened, etc. As a tangent to this, I have been battling mosquitoes in my quench bath, and have been reading discussions as to possible solutions for this - dish soap, oil, etc., and am wondering if there could be a related purpose for herbs in the bath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I suspect to keep the bugs down or impart a better fragrance on the slimy water. Water in a wood container, without some alcohol or other preservative, gets slimy and unpotable after a couple days, and develops an outright stench after a week or so. Water was not a "free" commodity like it is now. (yea, see how free bottled is, I know) but was rather labor intensive to get from one location to another mucking about with buckets. Even a simple hand pump is a significant reduction of labor for moving water, especially compared to drawing water with a bucket from a hand dug well. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I can't see how herbs in the quench would have any benefit for the steel. Even if they leached some potentially useful elements into the water, it takes a verrrrry long time for steel to absorb alloying elements if it isn't molten. Phil's theory sounds much more plausible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam2519 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I would go with the herbs making the "stinky" water more pleasant on the nose and depending on the type of herb, it would help keep mozzies away too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Welcome aboard Ed. In my insomnia I missed that this was your first post. You may want to go ahead and insert where you are from as part of your profile since IFI is represented around the world! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I would think certain herbs.......juniper,vanilla,catnip,cinnamon, etc would have aroma therapy benefits when quenching hot steel......Especially after say; a blown forge weld.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Welcome aboard Ed, glad to have ya. There're a number of benefits to putting your general location in your header. You might be surprised at how many of your neighbors are similarly addicted and check IFI. Then there's the time and energy it'll save us old farts when we're traveling and want a snack or place to nap. About the only plant I can think of that'd actually have a real world benefit would be Citronella as a mosquito repellant. Garlic oil will keep mosquito eggs and larva from surviving in the water too. Can't say how important aroma therapy in the smithy might be but I do favor food smells, vanilla or coconut being HIGH on my list. Oh, let us know if you find something that'll make your slack tub smell like roast beef or baking bread. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well herbs do help it has to be a full moon and you have dance around the forge sky-clad. LOL It is a type of tea. I can be a spell to make the steel stronger and sharper. The magic of forging. Camameal soothing. could not resist welcome to the site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Welllllll---"Sources for the History of the Science of Steel" has an entire chapter dedicated to renaissance quenchants that included such weird stuff as "worm water" and "radish juice" all claiming that they work *better* than plain water. My take on it is that at best they are going for a sort of brine quench---much like Theophilus wrote about in "Divers Arts" in 1120 C.E. when he suggested quenching in the "urine of a small red headed boy" or the "urine of a goat fed ferns for three days" either one is rather a smelly way of getting a weak brine quench. (It works BTW, but there is such an amusing smell when the hot steel hits the "quenchant"!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 (It works BTW, but there is such an amusing smell when the hot steel hits the "quenchant"!) Tom, you gots a strange sense of humor.......... :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimenickel Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 i don't have herbs in the quench water, but i do get dead mice on occasion.. kinda nasty ... even my bucket of canola... poured it into my iron tube to quench a bowie, and i could see a couple of fat/bloated mice in the bottom.. sooo.. .. onna hot day, try not to wash your face in it to cool off.. heh heh abit of sodium bicarb in the water .. i found slows the rust on the blades that i'm grinding.. takes longer to get that flash rust on it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 abit of sodium bicarb in the water .. i found slows the rust on the blades that i'm grinding.. takes longer to get that flash rust on it.. That sounds handy, but I have never gotten flash rust in the time it takes to grind something. In your particular environment how long does it take to get that nasty surface orange? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shimanek Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 About 5 minutes.....the washing soda in the tub helps greatly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Thomas, it's only amusing if you can get someone ELSE to use goat urine as a quenchant though it IS a relief if I gotta go while visiting. To prevent flash rusting just add a bit of water soluble oil the tub, the same stuff as "cutting" solution used in band saws, mills, lathes, etc. Chris Ray was experimenting with sugar in his slack tub for patination on steel. Think of trying to scrub Grandmother's cookie sheets and you'll have the idea. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well once I sort of qualified as the one and now I might qualify as the other---if I eat a lot of salad! (Actually my wife is a spinster and wanted to do a traditional indigo vat dye project. Indigo is a weird dye as instead of chemically bonding with the fiber it mechanically bonds with the fiber. It does this by being reduced in a vat of stale urine, fermenting bran or nowadays a chemical-thiosulphate. When reduced the dye molecule is quite small and slips in between the fibers. You then oxidize it by hanging the material in air and it turns beautiful blue and swells up so it can't escape the way it got in. So after being the vat filler designee and having to nurse it along as it was a cold summer and I had to move it into the sun, build a greenhouse for it and run a light bulb to it to help keep the temp up at night; I laid clam to it after the dying was done to test Theophilus's methods---some folks want very accurately made medieval eating knives! Well just like last week when I was having people forge eating knives from old sewer snake---I don't tell them what it was till *after* they have used it...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Actually my wife is a spinster . . . That one made me do a double-take. It's very rare that you see the word "spinster" used in its older, more literal sense anymore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 we're both sticklers for the jargon of our respective crafts---at least she doesn't smoke hams! (that insult in Monty Python's Holy Grail is actually an insult because it's claiming that his mother had a non-noble job, not that she was a rodent!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 My wife is a spinster too Matt, though she prefers "spinner. My Father was a spinner but different, a metal spinner to be specific. Anywho, Thomas and Mrs. and Deb and I are steel wool couples. Thomas said it first or so I heard, I liked it enough to adopt it for Deb and I, didn't even need to adapt it any. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Nitrates in the quenchant do indeed speed the quenching action. Doesn't matter whether they come from stale urine or not. Question I have is: Did any of the herbs added to quenchant in days of yore speed up the production of nitrates from the goat urine? (Collection from the boy would take long enough for nitrites to form without catalyst.) BTW, ferns act as a purgative, so after three days the goat would have relatively repeatable urine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 How about just buying a bag of urea and leave the goats, virgin boys and ferns alone? Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Barrel Company Posted July 9, 2011 Author Share Posted July 9, 2011 Thanks for al the insight on herbs in quench, and your wives, spinsters, etc. My perception is that the herbs are more ritual it practice, just wasn't sure if there was something to be gained by the carbon, sugar,etc. I have found this article: "The History of Quenching" by D. Scott Mackenzie, which is pretty in depth as to process and recipes. This is an Ottoman period concoction: "Mustafa Aga gives a special formula in his book, “The Book of Arrow” [21], for making armor-piercing arrowheads and sword blades. His quenching medium consists of: 1 okka Quick Lime (CaO) ½ okka Soda (NaCO) ½ okka Carbonas Cupricus (Copper Oxide?) ½ okka Arsenic Sulphate (AsS) 2 okka Radish juice 1 okka Wild Onion juice ½ okka Valonia ash 1 okka Tar (Okka is a weight unit and corresponds to 1283 grams.)" I did steel a bundle of rosemary from my wife's garden and throw it in my quench barrel recently when I was having to rapidly cool some pieces I was working on, the aroma was actually quite pungent and good. Got a friend with a huge hops vine, I think I'll try some of the buds from that when they're ready. Just got thirsty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Are we discussing adding stuff to the quench water to keep it clean smelling? control moskitos? or add some mysterious properties to the steel by a bath in the "snake oil"? I find I can make my quench bug free and make the shop smell nice by adding PINE-O-PINE to my quench tank. I have no idea as to what bennies this addition would have on the steel bits i dunk init, nor do I really care as I don't make sharp pointy things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Welllllll---"Sources for the History of the Science of Steel" has an entire chapter dedicated to renaissance quenchants that included such weird stuff as "worm water" and "radish juice" all claiming that they work *better* than plain water. My take on it is that at best they are going for a sort of brine quench---much like Theophilus wrote about in "Divers Arts" in 1120 C.E. when he suggested quenching in the "urine of a small red headed boy" or the "urine of a goat fed ferns for three days" either one is rather a smelly way of getting a weak brine quench. (It works BTW, but there is such an amusing smell when the hot steel hits the "quenchant"!) We forget that the beginning of scientific metallurgy dates no earlier than the late 18th century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Where's the *fun* in that? That's like buying blood meal to mix into a quench tank to try to replicate certain historical references. Oh Wait, NEVERMIND! And besides which I like to hear my wife laugh when I tell her I need to eat fiddlehead fern salads for the next 3 days so I can fill a quench tank...she knows the reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Fiddleheads? I love fiddlehead ferns. maybe I need to start a special quench tank to get Deb to indulge me. Oh wait, she DOES indulge me to an impressive degree. Nevermind. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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