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I agree, I can't speak for others but I want to be helpful. Now I can't be much help since even though I am a full time blacksmith with years of experience and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth on machinery I'm don't have the skill or equipment to do what you want. Out of the 10,000 plus members of this site I would guess there are maybe 10 that are actually qualified to give you real input about real world experience production forging automotive grade chrMo parts. The rest of us are just speculating

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Sorry, getting cranky in my dotage. But I guess that went beyond fun and might have made you feel bad. Wasn't the original question so much as that you seemed to casually brush aside what some were telling you.Ya gotta at least learn to drive before you jump in a race car. Steering and suspension parts are right up there with the Space Shuttle when it comes to quality parts. No room for error! Flat tire is one thing, but this kind of stuff is "mission critical".

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You are asking a big complicated question for even the most experienced would take days reading and lots of phone calls to properly respond to. Its kind of like asking a professional builder How do I build a house? But not knowing even the basics like how to read a tape and than asking him if you could borrow a set of prints. To expect a professional to lay out that amount of time to walk you through all of the steps is presumptuous to say the least. Especially when you don't even really have the vocabulary to properly ask the questions or any track record of making good use of information given to you on this forum. If someone were to take the time and it would take a lot of time, it is a 95% sure thing you will do nothing with the information. Basically because its a big complex thing that involves multiple disciplines, years of experience and education. Not to mention most likely 100's of thousands of dollars of equipment and materials. This is not something you would just whip out on a Sunday this is the work of experienced professionals. All that being said why dont you go on u tube and look up videos of drop forging also go on Google books and look at books about drop forging. There is tons of info out there, This should give you some ideas.

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Isn't asking here essentially doing some research?



Asking questions is good, but why should we spend our time, when he has not been willing to spend some of his reading what has already been posted?

Trying to point out there are answers to his questions posted already. The manner of his post proves he has not read much of anything about forging, or his query would have been stated differently

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Once again, he's obtaining information. That's what asking questions is. If YOU don't want to spend your time answering an uneducated question, then don't. Others, like Larry, seem to want to help.

The last few posts have been very informative and probably more along the lines of what he needs to hear. Grant and Tim made some very good points he should consider.

In university, I had an organic chem prof that, when asked a question, her answer was always 'read your text'. The next semester, there was a prof that would invite you to his office to answer 'any' question about organic chem. Guess who got far better reviews from the students (and coincidentally had a much higher average grade level of the students)?

Telling someone to read more before they ask a question doesn't help. There's already answers to almost EVERY question that exists. If we aren't supposed to ask questions, there wouldn't be question mark keys on the keyboard.

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I read and appreciate all of the responses. I did a little research (yes, I used Wikipedia, which some people seem to despise). This is a supposition about forging. This forum seems to be geared to traditional (hand) forging, and I believe this is considered not traditional since it’s done using machines.

The basic idea is:
 Forge cylinders/rods
 Closed-die, press forged
 Machine to final part

If one can buy forged rod stock, then the above is moot.

The basic plan is:
 Machine an closed-die to form a simple cylinder/rod
 Simple die: a block with a hole bored, then split in half
 Experiment and determine the size and shape of raw material rod stock to form a properly forged cylinder
 Heat one rod to the proper forging temperature (also to be determined)
 Place heated rod into die
 Press
 Post-treatment?

“The devil is in the details”, but does this make sense?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging

[i copied and pasted the text I think is relevant, and bolded the more important parts.]

There are many different kinds of forging processes available, however they can be grouped into three main classes:[1]

Drawn out: length increases, cross-section decreases
Upset: length decreases, cross-section increases
Squeezed in closed compression dies: produces multidirectional flow

Common forging processes include: roll forging, swaging, cogging, open-die forging, impression-die forging, press forging, automatic hot forging and upsetting.[

One variation of impression-die forging is called flashless forging, or true closed-die forging. In this type of forging the die cavities are completely closed, which keeps the workpiece from forming flash. The major advantage to this process is that less metal is lost to flash. Flash can account for 20 to 45% of the starting material. The disadvantages of this process include additional cost due to a more complex die design and the need for better lubrication and workpiece placement.

Closed-die forging has a high initial cost due to the creation of dies and required design work to make working die cavities. However, it has low recurring costs for each part, thus forgings become more economical with more volume. This is one of the major reasons closed-die forgings are often used in the automotive and tool industry. Another reason forgings are common in these industrial sectors is because forgings generally have about a 20 percent higher strength-to-weight ratio compared to cast or machined parts of the same material.

Press forging

Press forging works by slowly applying a continuous pressure or force, which differs from the near-instantaneous impact of drop-hammer forging. The amount of time the dies are in contact with the workpiece is measured in seconds (as compared to the milliseconds of drop-hammer forges). The press forging operation can be done either cold or hot.[10]

The main advantage of press forging, as compared to drop-hammer forging, is its ability to deform the complete workpiece. Drop-hammer forging usually only deforms the surfaces of the workpiece in contact with the hammer and anvil; the interior of the workpiece will stay relatively undeformed. Another advantage to the process includes the knowledge of the new part's strain rate. We specifically know what kind of strain can be put on the part, because the compression rate of the press forging operation is controlled. There are a few disadvantages to this process, most stemming from the workpiece being in contact with the dies for such an extended period of time. The operation is a time consuming process due to the amount of steps and how long each of them take. The workpiece will cool faster because the dies are in contact with workpiece; the dies facilitate drastically more heat transfer than the surrounding atmosphere. As the workpiece cools it becomes stronger and less ductile, which may induce cracking if deformation continues. Therefore heated dies are usually used to reduce heat loss, promote surface flow, and enable the production of finer details and closer tolerances. The workpiece may also need to be reheated. When done in high productivity, press forging is more economical than hammer forging. The operation also creates closer tolerances. In hammer forging a lot of the work is absorbed by the machinery, when in press forging, the greater percentage of work is used in the work piece. Another advantage is that the operation can be used to create any size part because there is no limit to the size of the press forging machine. New press forging techniques have been able to create a higher degree of mechanical and orientation integrity. By the constraint of oxidation to the outer most layers of the part material, reduced levels of microcracking take place in the finished part.[10]

Press forging can be used to perform all types of forging, including open-die and impression-die forging. Impression-die press forging usually requires less draft than drop forging and has better dimensional accuracy. Also, press forgings can often be done in one closing of the dies, allowing for easy automation.

Cost implications

To achieve a low cost net shape forging for demanding applications that are subject to a high degree of scrutiny, i.e. non-destructive testing by way of a dye-penetrant inspection technique, it is crucial that basic forging process disciplines are implemented. If the basic disciplines are not met, there is a high probability that subsequent material removal operations will be necessary to remove material defects found at non-destructive testing inspection. Hence low cost parts will not be achievable.[citation needed]

Example disciplines are: die-lubricant management (Use of uncontaminated and homogeneous mixtures, amount and placement of lubricant). Tight control of die temperatures and surface finish / friction.

A forging press, often just called a press, is used for press forging. There are two main types: mechanical and hydraulic presses. Mechanical presses function by using cams, cranks and/or toggles to produce a preset (a predetermined force at a certain location in the stroke) and reproducible stroke. Due to the nature of this type of system, different forces are available at different stroke positions. Mechanical presses are faster than their hydraulic counterparts (up to 50 strokes per minute). Their capacities range from 3 to 160 MN (300 to 18,000 short tons-force). Hydraulic presses use fluid pressure and a piston to generate force. The advantages of a hydraulic press over a mechanical press are its flexibility and greater capacity. The disadvantages include a slower, larger, and costlier machine to operate.

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Wishing to learn business techniques involved in commercial forging ( with zero forging experience )is a novel approach. It would be akin to perhaps learning the lumber trade ( raw to finished goods ) without having basic handsaw skills. Basic skills and experience would be the key. One hour, a cup or 2 of coffee and the opportunity to visit a given smiths shop, observing the smiths forging capabilities would teach you a lot if you are teachable. This could be accomplished by attending a demonstration at a local historical society or other event. Cooks can tell you the difference in wheat products and the necessary steps required to produce different finished goods. Painters the same ( oil, water color etc). Metals will have the same issues. You MAY learn a bit on the net but until you have bellied up to the bar ( so to speak ) you may remain in a rowboat with one oar. By the way, those involved in smiting here know the basic ideas of hand and machine forging, yes.

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Wishing to learn business techniques involved in commercial forging ( with zero forging experience )is a novel approach. It would be akin to perhaps learning the lumber trade ( raw to finished goods ) without having basic handsaw skills. Basic skills and experience would be the key.


I believe the Harvard Business school would object to that Ten. With few exceptions the idea is to somewhat adapt standard business principles to ALL businesses.
I once went to a Business Assoc in Wisconsin to seek a mentor for my small blacksmith shop. We talked a bit over the phone and I laid out what I did, how and the "profit". He said it was not a business...it was a hobby. I went on to describe the nature of craft businesses and he listened.... "Oh..you are an artist....well, I don't have much advice then."
I have spoken to several Art Schools, some with metals programs and some not.....NONE...yep..NONE have mandatory business classes for the students majoring in Art and very few of the students seek out this information on their own. They graduate and then look for work with little background in how that work will be sold, marketed or how the business is maintained.

I would wager Grant's skill in business could be applied to most any endeavor...consulting work is often mission specific so that is a special thing.

Ric

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Some intersting views in this thread. I dont believe you have to know anything about 'blacksmithing' to make closed die automotive parts from hot metal. you are just learning an industrial process. I dont know anything about sewing, but if you gave me 6 months and a suitable budget I could have a loom making complicated carpets running in a factory from a standing start.


The simple answer to your question, if you intend to have the parts made 'closed die', is a mechanical forging press of 500 - 750 tons capacity (or hammer around 1500lb head weight), a trim press, a set of impression dies and a way of getting the metal hot.

The real answer to your question depends very much on what your defintion of small quantity is! A component the size you describe would run on a (mechanical) forging press at 300+ pieces an hour, even hand fed (minimum automation, just conveyors, chutes and tongs) - single shift for one forging unit thats 12000+ pieces a week.

Industrial forging plant is pretty expensive, and to earn its keep tend to be worked very hard (I know of shops that run their machines 24/7).

The long and short of it is unless you are making a substantial number of parts a year out-sourcing the work makes the most sense, you then get the benefit of their die designers, tool room, metallurgists etc. Do a decent drawing of the part and send it out for quoting!

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GOODBYE

Steve,
If I offended you I appologize. My intent was not a challenge, but as they say how "the business of business is business".

Personally I feel that the introduction of the "widget" into business classes was a downfall..it removed a specific product and replaced it with an interchangeable word..a universal one.
In this way the student is forced to believe all is the same regardless of product......control the words the minds will follow.

Longevity is replaced with quarterly profit reports and the whole is always worth less than the parts.
Planned obsolescence replacing generational quality.
Finding areas where the law is ambiguous and perusing that rather than an all encompassing level playing field.

Much of my thoughts (hopes really) on business are naive and I think that shows, but to think that to run a business making a widget the one need to be able to make that widget ones-self to have it be a success, well, then you are more of a coal shoveler on that train than the railroad baron.

Ric

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John I believe you mean "weaving" rather than "sewing". When you work on a loom you are weaving.

I had to take a couple of business classes as part of my last degree and some of it was like being through the looking glass! I could grasp when it was better to run a factory that was losing money rather than shutting it down; but the part about how it made you more money to scrap a fully paid off machine that was still producing items well within speck with an identical new one that you owed a million dollars on---that made me wonder if someone needed their meds adjusted! (Though it was sadly true due to taxes and depreciation schedules)

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Hi Thomas, I actually meant sewing for the first part of my analogy <_< ,

my point was, (to my eyes at least) that free forging a small piece on an anvil by hand has as much to do with closed die automotive forging as sewing does to weaving a carpet.

I dont mean any offence to any blacksmiths with this statement, just how I see it! (and yes, I do hand forge, badly, by hand for fun!)

edit,

quite a lot of that Wiki artical is :rolleyes: :lol:

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So, my question is how hard is working on chrome Molly? Has anyone used it in blacksmith sculpture? I do light smithing as sculpture. And I decided the strength of this stuff might be really nice for my work. 

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Chrome molly forges like any steel, nothing exotic. You'll need to learn it's heat management and how it moves under the hammer but it's no big deal. You want to avoid over heating it though, chrome oxide is darned toxic so if you're going to forge weld it or have a habit of overheating it wear a respirator, take a shower soonest after the session and wash your work clothes. A coverall isn't a bad idea. Same for doing a lot of grinding and sanding it'll put chrome into the air.

This isn't a terrible risk but you don't want to deal with more health hazards than necessary. Right? Especially when the precautions are so easy ad basic.

Frosty The Lucky.

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It can be done but it's not worth the effort and money to make it work well. Cast iron is WAY easier and dangerous enough to satisfy the adventurer. Working with chrome moly is just a matter of knowing what you're getting into and taking precautions.

Frosty The Lucky.

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