FieryFurnace Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 A while back a friend of mine gave me one of her woodburned signs! It is a small sign that reads "Triple F Blacksmith" and it is burned on red cedar. The lady who did the work had one of my forged leaves and so she traced it and burned it on the ends. I use this sign for demonstrations because it is small and easy to carry! I recently got her to do me a large shop sign that reads "Fiery Furnace Forge Blacksmith Company." I asked her to free-hand the letters instead of stenciling them. This sign is burned on poplar. The larger sign is going to hang at the entrance of my shop.......but I need something to hang it from and I'm trying to come up with a good design worthy of this work of art. This is design one, of one! I like the overall layout and it will be a challenge. Lot's of scrolls in flat bar and collars, both of which I could practice up on. (The collars would have to be set in one heat since I don't have a torch! That should be fun!) The drawing really isn't to scale....I'll have to work on that. I don't know! What do y'all think! It's just what came from sitting and drawing! Thoughts??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Simplify, simplify. Think Brancusi not Yellen. Elegant curves and sweeping shapes, like a woman has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlreif Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I agree with Bigfoot. The over all concept is good but maybe the last scroll on the end larger to connect the top to the end. This would be a long flowing scroll. And then you can put a smaller scroll on the inside and collar it to the main. Would be cleaner and more refined looking. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hey Dave, You seem to like unique forms and ideas, so here is one. How about framing it. Where the hanger would attach to the shop make it symetrical top and bottom, with the bracket on both top and bottom being 1 1/2 times the height of the sign at the attachment point to the building(maybe larger it would have to be drawn to find the most artistic proportions). Then furthest from the shop have the top and bottom curve into each other and form a finial past the furthest edge of the sign. That way the sign would be enclosed from all sides by the frame/hanger and frame it as the work of art that it is. This, amoung being rather unique and eye catching, might get visiting customers thinking about a hand forged frame for that unmounted painting that they have had laying around for years. . . Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 That is an interesting idea Ramsburg......that is if I am understanding correctly. Basically there would be two of what I have drawn (That is in general shape,) one on top an one on bottom? Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hi Dave, Don't want to deviate too much from your design, but would just like to make a few relevant comments. Triangulation is required to make a sign bracket or a corner or shelf bracket rigid. I would expect your design to have some 'give' or spring due to the scroll arrangement at the top left corner, if you change the left hand square corner to join the top left C scroll as a running scroll, this will increase the rigidity. Are you anticipating this to be a 'Swinging' sign or is it just one faced? If you use it as a one faced sign you have more scope for a 'fancy' frame than as a swinging sign If it is to be a swinging sign, you will need two hangers for the sign, these hangers should face in opposite directions so that if the wind catches the sign and lifts it, only one hanger will become disengaged, saving the sign from coming loose and doing damage. If it is to be a swinging sign, then personally I would be looking to use a wider back plate rivetted to the scrolls rather than collars, it will help stop it twisting under wind pressure and also seat flat to the wall or boards it is to be fitted to, I would also consider side bracing arms to prevent movement. Collaring, you do not need a torch, make yourself a mandrel of the required size, form your collars around this mandrel, then open them up, back into the fire and bring to a good heat, then just fit onto the pieces to be joined and hammer closed or use collaring tongs to close them, they will shrink and grip on cooling. Chunky collars are easier to do rather than thin ones as they retain heat and look good. Whatever you decide, I am sure it will be a fine job. Good luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hi Dave, Don't want to deviate too much from your design, but would just like to make a few relevant comments. Triangulation is required to make a sign bracket or a corner or shelf bracket rigid. I would expect your design to have some 'give' or spring due to the scroll arrangement at the top left corner, if you change the left hand square corner to join the top left C scroll as a running scroll, this will increase the rigidity. Are you anticipating this to be a 'Swinging' sign or is it just one faced? If you use it as a one faced sign you have more scope for a 'fancy' frame than as a swinging sign If it is to be a swinging sign, you will need two hangers for the sign, these hangers should face in opposite directions so that if the wind catches the sign and lifts it, only one hanger will become disengaged, saving the sign from coming loose and doing damage. If it is to be a swinging sign, then personally I would be looking to use a wider back plate rivetted to the scrolls rather than collars, it will help stop it twisting under wind pressure and also seat flat to the wall or boards it is to be fitted to, I would also consider side bracing arms to prevent movement. Collaring, you do not need a torch, make yourself a mandrel of the required size, form your collars around this mandrel, then open them up, back into the fire and bring to a good heat, then just fit onto the pieces to be joined and hammer closed or use collaring tongs to close them, they will shrink and grip on cooling. Chunky collars are easier to do rather than thin ones as they retain heat and look good. Whatever you decide, I am sure it will be a fine job. Good luck with it. Pardon my ignorance but I've never had any formal training besides a few classes at JCCFS. What is a "running scroll?" The sign will actually be indoors. We live on the end of a road with two houses on it, so I'm not really worried about having one out doors where people can see it. I wa planning on the short side of the holder mounting to a post and the sign swinging under the long horizontal side. I had not thought about the collars getting in the way of the bracket mounting to the post. I'll keep that in mind when I get this or another desing on the anvil. The sign is only burned on one side and that side will face out of the shop so that you can read the sign as you enter the shop. From what I've heard the collar mandrel needs to be sharp cornered. What type of steel should I use? I have some 4140 in 2 inch square and some unknown that is like half 5/8"x1." (It is a part of a plow tine!) I have some axle but it is round. I could forge it down square/rectangular though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 dave you know i'm a fan,...make three or four of each,......and lay them out,...see what you see.......put the flats ( you have one in the design,..make another...) together , flip and turn and twist ,...see what it looks like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Pardon my ignorance but I've never had any formal training besides a few classes at JCCFS. What is a "running scroll?" The sign will actually be indoors. We live on the end of a road with two houses on it, so I'm not really worried about having one out doors where people can see it. I wa planning on the short side of the holder mounting to a post and the sign swinging under the long horizontal side. I had not thought about the collars getting in the way of the bracket mounting to the post. I'll keep that in mind when I get this or another desing on the anvil. The sign is only burned on one side and that side will face out of the shop so that you can read the sign as you enter the shop. From what I've heard the collar mandrel needs to be sharp cornered. What type of steel should I use? I have some 4140 in 2 inch square and some unknown that is like half 5/8"x1." (It is a part of a plow tine!) I have some axle but it is round. I could forge it down square/rectangular though! No need for apologies Dave, running scrolls are merely scrolls that are added to each other, a couple of pics attached for your perusal, these are relatively simple ones. This bracket is a student's piece made at Hereford College, And this infil was a competition piece made in two hours at the Devon County Show in 2009 by Richard Jones. For more information on running scrolls go here Lesson 19 on page 10 in this section http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%205_tcm2-18924.pdf and Lesson 24 on page 3 here http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%206_tcm2-18925.pdf As for collars and mandrels, details lesson 11 on page 11 http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%203_tcm2-18921.pdf shows the proceedure Sharp corners are not necessary, in fact they may start to undercut when forging, I believe collars have been discussed previously on this site which may give other 'extras' to this basic information, but the principle is the same Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian.pierson Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 No need for apologies Dave, running scrolls are merely scrolls that are added to each other, a couple of pics attached for your perusal, these are relatively simple ones. This bracket is a student's piece made at Hereford College, And this infil was a competition piece made in two hours at the Devon County Show in 2009 by Richard Jones. For more information on running scrolls go here Lesson 19 on page 10 in this section http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%205_tcm2-18924.pdf and Lesson 24 on page 3 here http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%206_tcm2-18925.pdf As for collars and mandrels, details lesson 11 on page 11 http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%203_tcm2-18921.pdf shows the proceedure Sharp corners are not necessary, in fact they may start to undercut when forging, I believe collars have been discussed previously on this site which may give other 'extras' to this basic information, but the principle is the same Hope this helps. Dave, Here is a link to one of Brian Brazeal's postings about scrolls and collars. Shows some scrolls and his collaring jig. Brian Pierson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 John B. Thanks a bunch for those links! That will really help when I go to start building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hey Dave, Sorry for the belated reply, I lost track of this thread somehow, it must have moved. Yeah, exactly what I was saying. Two of your designs, one above and one bellow. Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 ok thanks! I need to lay this out on the welding table, full-scale, and make some adjustments....just have to find the time! :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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