Refacing

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

I don't know why, but I have this urge/desire to reface an anvil. I don't have one that needs it but I just kinda feel like it is something I should be doing to push my forge welding abilities into the next level. I have a few thoughts on a method that might make it relatively simple. Not to imply that getting a mass of steel to that temperature safely is simple, rather the task of getting the weld to take with less hassle than I have seen guys have trying to reface them. I'm just rambling here really, but I think this to be something I need to do in preparation for making my own London Pattern anvil one of these days, which has been a long standing dream of mine. Someone slap me, do I really want to go through that much work?

[Dragons lair]

I don't know why, but I have this urge/desire to reface an anvil. I don't have one that needs it but I just kinda feel like it is something I should be doing to push my forge welding abilities into the next level. I have a few thoughts on a method that might make it relatively simple. Not to imply that getting a mass of steel to that temperature safely is simple, rather the task of getting the weld to take with less hassle than I have seen guys have trying to reface them. I'm just rambling here really, but I think this to be something I need to do in preparation for making my own London Pattern anvil one of these days, which has been a long standing dream of mine. Someone slap me, do I really want to go through that much work?

Do ya really want to do one? I hear ya. have not refaced one but have repaired several. Botton line is if ya can go for it nnd tell us how. If it fails keep your mouth shut. Sorry guys I do not belive in don't touch don't repair.
If ya wanna live with substandard more power to ya.
Ken.

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

I wouldn't consider refacing an anvil that didn't need it. If I can get away with dressing one with a grinder, that is the route I travel. But if I stumble across one with a broken or severely dinged up face, I might just see if I can lay my hands on a nice plate of 1145 or something and give my theory a shot. Of course heat treating is another issue entirely, but I might be able to solve that one with a swimming pool on my roof... LOL.

[ThomasPowers]

Did you attend the anvil re-facing they did at Quad-State 2 years ago? Also there is a SOFA member who built a helve hammer from an old hay baler with a very heavy head on it and forged a small anvil with it. (Was it Ed Rhodes-sp?) SOFA would be a good resource on this project---we used to carpool for 2 hours to attend meetings there from Columbus and I still try to attend Quad-State though it's about a 1500 mile drive each way for me now.

Ken; if someone's car was running rough would you advise them to re-build the engine so they wouldn't have a sub-standard vehicle?---Knowing that they possibly had no mechanic skills and would most likely go from a "substandard" vehicle to *no* vehicle? I'm more of the "if you have to ask the details you probably not ready to do it" school.

I don't know if anyone can find it but about a decade or more ago there was pictures on the web about a "cajun blackened anvil" where a group tried to reface an anvil and ended up burning big holes in the base as they couldn't see it buried in a big fire.

[evfreek]

I have heard the recommendation to start small, for example with a stake anvil. If you goof up (and you probably will, just from the tone of your post), you only mess up a few pounds of scrap steel. If you succeed, you have an awesome conversation piece that will really be useful. No need to shut up if you fail. We will all love to hear you squeel since we (or more specifically I) would probably also fail in the same situation, and have a lot to learn.

For example, I tried something similar, and I had a very difficult time getting the weld to take evenly. It would weld in one place, then pop off when I was hammering it in the other place. The problem was probably due to uneven temperature in too small of a forge. It stuck, but it was ugly. The next time I try something like that, I will use a larger forge with more banking, and I will do it when there is no one else around :lol:

[ThomasPowers]

Since they do so much explosive welding around here, (we share the NMT campus with EMRTC). I have wondered about getting an anvil refaced explosively.

Unfortunately I think the shock would be too hard on the other parts of a traditionally forge welded anvil. Hmmm perhaps weld a HighC top on a block anvil...have to talk to my contacts...

[pkrankow]

Why not start small. I am sure an anvil in the 20 pound range can be worked up from scratch by a small group of smiths.
Phil

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Thomas, I saw video of the SOFA refacing, but this was my first year there. Actually, I think you and I met there this year and chatted for a fair while. Like I said, it is just a dream of mine to make an anvil of considerable size eventually. And all this reading here lately got me to musing about it. I am an excellent forge welder, and have mastered popping some awfully tricky welds, it just seems logical to me that the first step in preparing to make an anvil would be refacing an old beat up one or 10... LOL

[ThomasPowers]

GO FOR IT!

[GunsmithnMaker]

This sounds interesting to me as well. Not because I would ever make a London Pattern anvil or even try to reface one myself per se, but because I'd like to know how the whole process is accomplished.

Are there any books or other scholarly materials that deal with the subject of how anvils are, or were made?

I also wonder, since we've had threads here about what an anvil is, and using pieces of steel and RR materials as anvils, can anyone point to something they think defines a "modern" anvil. Shape, necessary accessories (hardies), and weight also seem to be mandatory issues.

[ThomasPowers]

Anvils in America lists quite a few patents on improvements in anvil making that you could research.

In general I would think the major trend was in lowering the number of pieces---the face went from multiple slabs to one slab, and then to the whole top half of an anvil being one piece. The body crept down to 2 pieces still forge welded at the waist and then, with the switch to all steel in both top and bottom, arc welded at the waist.

[mat]

i have pondered same and thought that a saw doctors anvil may be the easiest place to start?,did i just say easy?lol.

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Think I might start my experiments with a Mild steel base and a plate. I can use an anvil for making double edge blades easier. A rectangular anvil is kinda nice because you can hammer off either edge easily.

[Mainely,Bob]

I just gotta ask guys,is the whole point of this exercise to end up with a usable anvil or is this just hankering for the "good old days" and wanting to sacrifice an anvil to the forge gods in a futile effort to big them back?
For a bunch of folks who throw their arms up in the air and dance around like the world is ending every time someone mentions repairing or modifying an anvil you sure are being cavalier about heating and beating the bejesus out of an anvil that could be saved by the more modern yet effective and efficient process of electric welding.
There,I said it and I`m glad!

Next thing you`ll be wanting to rivet an ocean liner together and sail around Cape Horn.

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Point would be to eventually make an anvil using the old methods combined with some experimental ideas I have. I wouldn't even consider doing it with a servicable anvil. I am talking about refacing one of them old abused things with 1/2 the face busted off for the experimental aspect. Don't get me wrong, I have a VERY good idea what goes into refacing one by forgewelding. But on the same note, why would I ever forge weld when I can just pick up the MiG welder? I forge weld because I can and I am xxxx good at it. I rarely miss a weld on the first attempt. Surfacing an anvil with hardface electrode provides far from an ideal anvil face, though it makes for a decent spot repair. Also, I never dance and rant about someone repairing an anvil, it is your anvil, do what you want with it. I wouldn't consider refacing something with chipped edges or anything that minor, that would be stupid, grinding and spot welding are far more effective there. Forge welding a new face to an anvil is no minor undertaking, but you almost sound as if you are upset that anyone would even consider trying it. Additionally, if you are beating the bejeesus out of your forge welds, you are doing it wrong :)

[ThomasPowers]

Well a lot of us consider forge welding *fun* and spending hours with arc welder and grinder un-fun---besides which the cost differentials....

The anvil I purchased for my experiment was $5 and pretty much unusable as it's missing 90+% of it's face, also the heel, hardy, etc.

It would be much more cost effective to buy another anvil in better shape than use modern methods on it; not to mention the BRAGGING RIGHTS
to doing it the old way!

[T Ritter]

I would say if you have the knowledge or at least an idea why not try forge welding a new face on. If the anvil is almost completely unusable it would end up being in someone's flower bed or used as a door stop, or even worse at the scrap yard. So there is nothing really to lose in the long run.

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Similar thoughts here Thomas. The bragging rights of having build your own anvil would be a cool bonus. Like I mentioned, I think I might start off making a block anvil for double edging blades just to see if my theories are sound. The methodology is similar to the fluxless welding method used by J.W. Randal for welding his mosaic damascus cuts back together. The idea is to use a TiG torch to seal the seam of the join after creating a good mechanical fit. After that, the biggest problems are getting the heat, and of course being able to position the anvil safely so the face can be hammered. Forge welding is best done with light blows not with raining the weight of Thor's hammer down on the weld. I actually use a wooden mallet to pop my welds as it helps prevent me from striking too hard. Like I said, it is theory that I know for a fact works on small scale, and I am curious how well it translates to the large scale. My forge welding skills are at a level where 9 times out of 10, when I need a weld that doesn't need to be perfectly structural, I will reach for the flux before I reach for the MiG machine. I drop-tong weld on a regular basis, most of the time if I burn mild steel in the fire through my bad habit of talking or multitasking, I will forgeweld the pieces back together. I have managed to weld plugs into pipe, and have even managed fillet welds in the fire. Hence, I feel it is time for me to take it to the next level. I merely posted this here to share my enthusiasm for doing it the old way.

[Mainely,Bob]

Point would be to eventually make an anvil using the old methods combined with some experimental ideas I have. I wouldn't even consider doing it with a servicable anvil. I am talking about refacing one of them old abused things with 1/2 the face busted off for the experimental aspect. Don't get me wrong, I have a VERY good idea what goes into refacing one by forgewelding. But on the same note, why would I ever forge weld when I can just pick up the MiG welder? I forge weld because I can and I am xxxx good at it. I rarely miss a weld on the first attempt. Surfacing an anvil with hardface electrode provides far from an ideal anvil face, though it makes for a decent spot repair. Also, I never dance and rant about someone repairing an anvil, it is your anvil, do what you want with it. I wouldn't consider refacing something with chipped edges or anything that minor, that would be stupid, grinding and spot welding are far more effective there. Forge welding a new face to an anvil is no minor undertaking, but you almost sound as if you are upset that anyone would even consider trying it. Additionally, if you are beating the bejeesus out of your forge welds, you are doing it wrong

Just so I`m clear on this.My post was not aimed at you Mac Talis, but at the rest of the long term members who constantly decry anyone but a certified welder who has been successful at it in the past even thinking about fixing an anvil.THOSE folks are the flail and dance crowd.
I just find it rather strange that they consider it blasphemy to think about trying to arc weld to save an anvil yet are eager to cheer someone on who has a less than 25% chance of success doing this in an average shop setting.Even if you work in a foundry and do this after work with the help of friends it`s an iffy thing at best.
There have been more than a couple of posts on IFI where a new face has been successfully arc welded onto an old "scrap" anvil and the anvil brought back into service.Some of those posts even documented the process.
To my knowledge there has only been one post here of a successfully hammer welded anvil and that took place at a large gathering using specialized gear with more than a few old hands working as a team and directly contributing to the work.
Never did hear the final verdict after heat treating or if it`s still in use.

If you`re doing something for fun then don`t let me rain on your parade.If you want a decent chance at a usable anvil when the smoke and steam clears then it`d be best to set the old ways aside and use available technology to your advantage.It`ll improve your chances of success by several orders of magnitude.
I just find it amazing that the same folks who scream "DON`T DO IT!!!" when you talk about arc welding an anvil which they have seen successfully done more than a dozen times here are more than happy to encourage a hammer welding exercise using that same anvil that they know will most probably end badly.

[KYBOY]

Go for it..Dosnt bother me a bit to repair a anvil..I rebuilt the heel of a hay budden broke off at the hardy hole. Now it has a serviceable hardy hole again and looks a whole lot better to boot. Ive been thinking of forging a small stake anvil and welding a face on it..

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Just so I`m clear on this.My post was not aimed at you Mac Talis, but at the rest of the long term members who constantly decry anyone but a certified welder who has been successful at it in the past even thinking about fixing an anvil.THOSE folks are the flail and dance crowd.
I just find it rather strange that they consider it blasphemy to think about trying to arc weld to save an anvil yet are eager to cheer someone on who has a less than 25% chance of success doing this in an average shop setting.Even if you work in a foundry and do this after work with the help of friends it`s an iffy thing at best.
There have been more than a couple of posts on IFI where a new face has been successfully arc welded onto an old "scrap" anvil and the anvil brought back into service.Some of those posts even documented the process.
To my knowledge there has only been one post here of a successfully hammer welded anvil and that took place at a large gathering using specialized gear with more than a few old hands working as a team and directly contributing to the work.
Never did hear the final verdict after heat treating or if it`s still in use.

If you`re doing something for fun then don`t let me rain on your parade.If you want a decent chance at a usable anvil when the smoke and steam clears then it`d be best to set the old ways aside and use available technology to your advantage.It`ll improve your chances of success by several orders of magnitude.
I just find it amazing that the same folks who scream "DON`T DO IT!!!" when you talk about arc welding an anvil which they have seen successfully done more than a dozen times here are more than happy to encourage a hammer welding exercise using that same anvil that they know will most probably end badly.

Average shop? Specialized equipment? Yes and no... blacksmiths made anvils for centuries before they started to make them in the more specialized shops. I am not looking to build a Peter Wright or Budden quality anvil. The method that I am proposing is actually a hybrid of modern tech and old school methods. I think most of those who oppose repairing an anvil with a welder, oppose the haphazard methods of doing it on anvils that really don't need repair. An anvil isn't a precision reference tool, it is a big block of steel to back your work while you hammer on it. It doesn't need to be perfectly flat and it doesn't need perfectly crisp edges. Take my primary anvil for example, it is a mid to late 1800's PW and it suffers from the typical edge chipping and sway belly. Well, I ground a small 3-4" section of the shoulder that was the crispest to roughly square again, cleaned the chipping up so I have random radii along the edges, I did cut 1/4" or so off the heel to square it back up, and it works great. I love having a little belly in an anvil, it makes straightening MUCH, MUCH easier. An anvil in this condition doesn't need welding to repair it, and is more likely to damage the integrity of the anvil than help it. Now, if it had a huge chip in the face, or a nasty pit somewhere in it, I'd be tempted to try filling it with weld, as even if it did end up soft or whatever, it would still be better than having to constantly avoid that annoying hole, and you could always reweld it if it failed. It is only the most extremely damaged anvils that Refacing should be considered, and I am well aware that some people have had good luck layering weld bead or perimiter welding a plate to the face. As I said, this is an experimental hybrid method that if successful, could make the task of refacing a relatively simple matter.

[ThomasPowers]

I think that if a lot of new people wanting a sharp edged "pristine" anvil would just use the one they have for a year or two they would find a lot of it's "faults" were actually "features" to be used and would then be annoyed if someone suggested they clean it up!

I have owned several anvils I had repaired by experts; but many more that I use just as they stand!