Tongs Question

[kraythe]

I have been making my own tongs for some time now. I feel like I am able to do it ok given that I dont have a power hammer to make the job easier. My general process is to start with a 5/8" round, taper back to one end from about 6" up the bar to form tapered handles, then set down the jaw half way with front half face blows, then set in a shoulder with far radius side half face blows and then flatten back to the start of the handle taper. So the tongs are strongest near the boss area.

The problem i have been having is that the tongs are continually breaking on me. Every time I think to make a second set, the first set snaps usually on the jaws area. I try to make wolf jaw tongs with a v-grove because they seem to be the most useful. At any rate the frequent breakage is seriously getting to me and I am looking for suggestions on how I could do better. I thought about making them out of spring steel that seems to be more resistent to getting hot but that is a LOT of work without a power hammer and I have never been able to find a coil spring that thick.

I use the tongs in a propane forge and dunk them regularly in water to keep them from overheating and changing shape due to overheating and pressure. However, sometimes they still get too hot and they end up oout of sorts and I have to reset them. Any tips you can offer?

Thanks.

[John B]

Hi K, Firstly its probably the dunking and rapid cooling that is causing the problem of breakage

To help prevent the need for quenching, remove the tongs from the workpiece and forge when heating your material, and also make the handles longer

Spring steel will still give the same problems if you use them and dunk them, and are more likely to become brittle and possibly snap off due to the hardening effect if dropped or misused

Making tongs from spring steel is only slightly longer/harder than from mild if forged at the correct heat, and you can use strips off leaf springs for material if you can't obtain coil springs

[thecelticforge]

You may also want to bump the stock up to 3/4 inch and give the working areas more mass. I also just let my tongs air cool. I think mild steel is okay for a few types of tongs (farrier). You may want to search for more massive springs at truck stops or rail road yards.

[bigfootnampa]

The quenching is a big problem but you also need to address the underlying problem... why you need to quench... you are getting your tongs too hot too often. Take the time to make at least two sets and use one while the other is cooling. My tongs only quite rarely will be heated to the point where they start to glow.

[Jymm Hoffman]

First, good for you for making you own tongs. Keep doing that, no matter how frustrating, but try slight changes where the breaks happen, Are the breaks in the same place?

Lots of theories can be posted about this. We need more information, pictures would help too. Most of the tongs I make are similar to the style and method shown in "The Blacksmiths Craft" published by CoSIRA. I did a quick search and had troubles finding the the link for the free download. However, most of the time I am not welding the reins onto the jaw stock as shown in this chapter. I do have 2 power hammers and draw out the reins. Most of the time I use 3/4 square, occasionally making lighter tongs.

I use hot rolled mild steel (A 36) and have no problems throwing my tongs in the water, even when they are red to orange. However, I am not waiting for them to get that hot before cooling when too hot to hold. If you are using A36, 1020, 1010 or similar mild steel, the cooling should not be a problem. If you are using an alloy or higher carbon steel, then that is a problem. Occasionally you can get a bad batch of steel. I have only had that problem once or twice in 30 years.

The other problem could be in how you are making them, getting one area too thin or even a "cold shut." That is why pictures will help others guide you through this journey. Of course, the best solution is to take a class with someone that has made them.

[Frank Turley]

All shoulders should be radiused for strength. The radius acts like a gusset. As a beginner in smithing, I read in "The Blacksmith's Craft" that one should put a 1/8" radius on the near and far anvil-face edges. The radii run from the step to almost the middle of the waist. All of my anvils have this feature, and it was done with an angle-sander.

As a rule of thumb, all shoulders should be reduced about one half the thickness of the stock you start with...ON THE FINISHED TONGS. This means to shoulder not quite half thereby LEAVING A FINISHING ALLOWANCE for reforging, fine tuning, and perhaps, grinding. Therefore, starting with 5/8" stock, the jaw will wind up being 5/16" thick. A sharp angled, inside shoulder may "gall" the metal, even if using mild steel, and with repeated use, may develop a crack.

Again, referring to "The Blacksmith's Craft," the authors suggest forging each tong shoulder at a welding heat. They do not explain why, but in my experience, it makes the job go quickly and there is less chance of getting the small heat checks that you often get when shouldering and working at a red heat and below.

On older anvils I've seen in the U.S., this radius idea may vary. Many of them had a radius on the far side only. Some had the radius going in length from a 1/4" radius down to a point of zero. To each his own.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[maddog]

...you can use strips off leaf springs for material if you can't obtain coil springs

What's your recommendation for cutting leaf spring this way?

Thanks

[fciron]

The CoSIRA books can be downloaded here: http://www.hct.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html

[John B]

What's your recommendation for cutting leaf spring this way?

Thanks

Depends on what equipment you have, some different ways are; oxy/acet gas cutting, plasma, hot cut, angle grinder, normalise and saw.

It may be cheaper to purchase correct size stock if you are trying to make a living from your smithing.

[Rich Hale]

You did not mention what steel you are using for tongs. If you are using mild steel it may be better, If it is rebar you may continue to have troubles in spite of wot you do. The other thing that this brings to mind is if you are using a glove on your tong hand it will let you work long enough to get the tongs overheated. If you cannot work without a glove you need longer reins.
The only time I have seen students overheat tongs is when they used a glove on tong hand. A gas forge gives alot of heat out the area you are reaching in with tongs to grasp stock when hot. I shut my forge off with a quarter turn valve each time I reach for stock and it will light on its own from residual heat when I put steel back in and turn valve slowly back on. For safeties sake if you do this and forge does not light right away turn gas back off open and close the door a couple of times then open door and light it the same as if you are just starting the day.

[Ramsberg]

When my late blacksmith(hobby) uncle was in Malaysia they showed him how they cut the leaf springs hot.

They got them hot, flatened them and then used a hot cut(with a striker) to cut them to shape. They used them to make machetes.

Caleb Ramsby

[kraythe]

I am using mild steel 5/8ths round stock. I wish I could find enough thick spring steel but I have had no luck funding it.

[Francis Trez Cole]

a picture of the broken tongs would help mild steel should hold up. I to make my own it is a good and useful skill to learn. this may help
Capacity In.ABCDEFGHILRivet1/4 - 5/165/81/27/165/161/811/25/161/4141/43/8 - 7/163/49/161/25/163/161-1/89/165/161/4165/161/2 - 5/87/85/89/163/81/41-1/45/83/85/16183/83/4 - 7/813/45/87/163/81-1/23/43/85/16207/161 - 1-1/81-1/87/811/161/21/21-3/47/83/85/16201/21-1/4 - 1-3/81-1/413/49/165/8217/163/8221/21-1/2 - 1-3/41-3/81-1/87/85/83/42-1/81-1/81/23/8249/161-7/8 - 2-1/81-3/81-3/1615/1611/1612-1/41-1/41/23/8265/82-1/4 - 2-1/21-1/21-1/413/41-1/82-1/21-1/29/167/16285/82-5/8 - 2-7/81-1/21-5/161-1/163/41-1/42-3/41-3/49/167/16303/43 - 3-1/41-5/81-3/81-1/83/41-1/2325/81/2323/43-1/2 - 3-3/41-3/41-1/21-1/43/41-3/43-1/42-1/45/81/2343/44 - 4-1/421-5/81-5/1613/1623-1/42-1/211/169/16363/44-1/2 - 4-3/42-1/81-5/81-5/1613/162-1/83-1/42-3/411/169/16383/452-1/41-3/41-3/87/82-1/43-1/23-1/43/45/8407/8Machinery's Handbook 1st - 23rd edition and 27th Edition CD used with permission.

[maddog]

When my late blacksmith(hobby) uncle was in Malaysia they showed him how they cut the leaf springs hot.

They got them hot, flatened them and then used a hot cut(with a striker) to cut them to shape. They used them to make machetes.

Caleb Ramsby

Might try that. At the same time I could cut out the profile for the boss & jaws. Richardson gives a similar method for splitting a long bar onto tong blanks.

[eric sprado]

Mild steel should do. I even "cheat" and make quickie "twisted jaw" tongs and never have had any break.. Hope you purists don't hunt me down and lynch me for making twisted jaw tongs!!!!!

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

This was touched upon, but I am gonna reiterate... spring steels are hardenable, if you are getting anywhere near the crit point of the steel heatwise and end up quenching them, they are going to harden and become brittle. With the exception of a few jobs, hardenable steels do not make for good tongs for this reason. I have always used plain old mild steel for my tongs, and I don't think I have ever had a pair break. I would suspect another factor than the steel for the failures you are experiencing. Mild isn't appreciably affected by quenching, so overheating and cooling probably isn't the problem. I'd look at the appropriateness of the tongs for the job first i.e. are you using too light a pair for too heavy of work, or poor design/execution of the tongs as far as hard shoulders and the like. All your transitions should be radiused to relieve stress, if you have crisp shoulders in them, it can create a shear point that leads to failure. Hope this helps some, and good luck on getting them to work. If you live anywhere near NE Ohio, drop me a line, and I'd be glad to show you how I make them buggers. As I said, I don't think I have ever had a pair of tongs I made break on me (though I have had to forge weld a few back together after burning through the reins LOL).

[clinton]

I have noticed that some of the steel I have bought lately will just fracture if forged too cold. I have had all kinds of cracks in pieces when forging at a black heat to finish

[ishoe]

I can't imagine what kind of forging one would be doing that would get tongs overheated. They should never be quenched in water over a black heat unless they are forged out of mild steel, then you can pretty much do anything you want to them. I have several pair that iI have made out of oil field sucker rod and numerous other pairs made out of the same material by Shayne Carter, Jay Sharp, Jim Quick, Jim Poor and Jim Keith. They have been quenched thousands of times without any noticible damage. Not trying to sell anything here, but Chad Chance from hoofwatch.com has a fantastic video of Jim Poor making and explaining tongs on DVD for about 40 bucks. Well worth the money. I think there is a trailer on youtube. Just search for Jim Poor tong and you should find it.