I confess...

[lordcaradoc]

As good Mr Clemens once said:"There're worse things than burning books;one is not reading them...".Or something to that effect.

An excellent quote and sentiment, but I checked an it was Ray Bradbury “There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.” Again, I agree with this.

To add a little from Samuel Clemens in some context of the conversation. "It is noble to teach oneself, but still nobler to teach others--and less trouble."
Mark Twain - Doctor Van Dyke speech, 1906

In looking for Twain quotes, I found this wonderful site: Mark Twain Quotations

Regards,
Tim

[jake pogrebinsky]

Cool,Tim,thanks for that,and the correction,too-i'm a bit too free with my quotes!(The old memory is not what it used to be,and the computer skills too undeveloped to reference stuff easily )

Gents,this is a very valid discussion.One can actually use this as a reference base,as the collective experience of the assembly is so vast,and diverse.

It would be great to be more specific,though,the generalities seem to be something that everyone has covered before,simply out of necessity.

Naturally,no one goes out of their way to make the work more difficult to accomplish or to take more time to complete.Quite the opposite,in fact.
The difference in what,exactly,one does under the particular circumstances,can be very educational to others.

Speaking strictly for mtself,i've sinned on the side of exessive primitivism for too long.Because i was isolated,non-electric,et c.It taught me a great deal,and probably benefited the aesthetics of the finished work,but was terribly destructive to my economic status.

I'd like to change my evil ways,somewhat,but after so many years my very thinking runs to strictly manual mode.Even if/when the technology is available i've a very hard time incorporating it's help into the design process.Just not aware enough of what possibilities that the fabrication methods can contribute to speed up or ease the blacksmith's work.

Maybe we can use this,or some similar discussion,to compare notes on the particular "tricks" where fabrication can make our lives easier,without compromising too much of the final appearance of work,our enjoyment in doing the work,and all else(a widely varying and subjective threshold for each of us)?

[monstermetal]

Wouldn't it be great to spend a year working with another smith who is on the other end of the spectrum? The tech guy learning all the primitive methods and vise versa?

[jake pogrebinsky]

Wouldn't it be great to spend a year working with another smith who is on the other end of the spectrum? The tech guy learning all the primitive methods and vise versa?

It would be even better than great,it would be flipping marvelous!
It would benefit both smiths tremendously,the customer-most definitely as well,allow the shop to take on work that will continue to bring other similar commissions way into the future...Can't even imagine a more productive proposition.
Right on.

[ianinsa]

Hi Again All,

In 2003 whilst visiting Cairo I saw a railing in a blacksmiths shop that was amaising, every junction was crisp and clean!

When I asked how he did it? He said 'trade secret'. Upon being pressed he conceded that for $100 he would not only show me, but he would make up and provide me with the tools req.

Thinking what the heck(I'm on holliday anyhow) I agreed.

One of the best $100 ever spent!He had a set of punching dies that punched(cold) in an ecentric press a square hole into a flat bar into which you put the heated end of a square bar. Then punch the corners on the oposite side with a center punch, This spreads and fixes the bar. He then used urine as a flux(we use spitits of salts)and filled the gaps with lead.
Now you just clean up with a soaped file.

My $100 got me 3 hours of watching 4 incredibly skilled smiths working with some really old tools, 3 self contained die sets to punch 12,16 and 20mm holes in flat bars ranging from 6 x 20mm to 10 x 50mm weight of each dieset =9kg.

I collected my die sets 2 weeks later as it had taken him 10 days to make them with his ancient shaper.

These lead filled joints are incredibly quick to make up, 'traditional' and are really neat. If your end product is painted these 'invisible welds' are certainly worth a try.

Many sceptics will also be surprised as to just how strong they are too. We also use this method when adding punched/drilled flat bars into gates and burglar bars to prevent spreading and have never had a complaint.

Ian

[jake pogrebinsky]

Wow,Ian,that's some really neat info,gives a guy lots to think about...

Great story,too.Thanks a lot,really appredciate all that!

[monstermetal]

One of the best $100 ever spent!He had a set of punching dies that punched(cold) in an ecentric press a square hole into a flat bar into which you put the heated end of a square bar. Then punch the corners on the oposite side with a center punch, This spreads and fixes the bar. He then used urine as a flux(we use spitits of salts)and filled the gaps with lead. ow you just clean up with a soaped file.

My $100 got me 3 hours of watching 4 incredibly skilled smiths working with some really old tools, 3 self contained die sets to punch 12,16 and 20mm holes in flat bars ranging from 6 x 20mm to 10 x 50mm weight of each dieset =9kg.

That sounds quite clever Ian.... I dont suppose you have photos of a joint or the tooling?

[jake pogrebinsky]

I'd like to make somewhat of an example of a courrent project,(and try to be brief about it).

It's a set of strap-hinges,24" long.Each is comprised of 3 parts that will be riveted together.

The parts are 5/8" cold-rolled 1020 round(the only stock of that size i've had available).

I worked each of the 3 elements in a pair with it's mirror from the other hinge.With some re-designing in-flight,this and that,i've 10+ hours in the deal and looking at another 5-6.(All gas,one burner at 4-5 psi).

Working with round i've some volume to play with,but i think that if:(1)All or parts were cut with plazma out of,say,5/16" or 3/8" plate,
(2)The cuts were made with a porta-band or the like,and,(3)i used a mig to tack everything together before riveting,i'd save a significant amount of time and fuel.
While loosing very little,if any,"forged" appearance.
(Structurally,of course,the straps are neutral past the first set of fasteners from the barrel,so it matters not).
It is nice to have some volume,flat,tinny stock would look goofy on a massive door,but quite a bit of volume can be gotten out of thick plate.Or an illusion thereof at least.
If i was better at that sort of design than i'm sure that i could cut a significant % of work and fuel out of the project.

The design stage is way crucial(surprise! )

[monstermetal]

Those are great Jake!



You know something that has not been brought up that I see as key to this whole discussion.

So I am speaking of personal experience. I am a tool and machine guy. I love tools and machines and even have a collection of tools that is there just because I find them fascinating and beautiful... Nothing in my "collection" is above use, but I have bought things I had no need of because of some attraction. I am not a purest or traditionalist by a long shot... I had a powerhammer the first year I was smithing... still to this day there are many simple things I can forge on a powerhammer that I dont have the hand skills to do effectively... But whats important to me is I can get it done and feel good about how it turns out.

Ok, so you know my position... The other side of it is I simply can not do things the hard way. I have shop overhead that would scare most one man shop owners to death.. I have to be doing something that pays 8 hours a day 6 days a week, just to break even, more if I actually want to get ahead... So I have to do what ever comes through the door, and do a quick, quality job... Now I created these conditions and these days Id rather wish I would have stayed smaller. Back when I worked out of my garage I thought "if only" i had a power hammer and a big shop... all these great tools... then I could really do something... well now I have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of machinery and a 7000 sq foot shop... And I think "If only" I was back in my garage with no overhead I could be making a profit and working on something more in tune with my interests.... Im not complaining, I feel really fortunate to be where I am.. And Just yesterday while forging a gift for a fellow who helped me out... I thought I could spend the next 20 years playing with just what I have now and never want for anything... Ok I am wandering... My point is most if not all of the truly skilled smiths I know gained that skill from doing boring work day in and day out... If you put a long taper on 1000 3/4 bars by hand... by the time your done your going to be really efficient at it... I dont have to be "good" at it, I have a powerhammer.. And I can see what a hurdle that is for me to overcome... I cant afford to do it the "hard way" but the hard way is the only way to ever get good at it.... So its a trap. And it holds true for everything.... Now I am quite good at running a powerhammer... I can do things under a press and with a hammer that you could not duplicate by hand given any amount of time... (most of that has to do with how material flows under extreme continuous force, not skill) You will never get good at forging with a powerhammer unless you forge those 1000 long tapers on one..... so there again... Do I wish I had more opportunity to improve my traditional skills? Absolutely, and I really do understand the value of those skills... But on the same token I feel like all understanding of how the metal moves is valuable, even if its under a hydraulic press.

I wish I was in a financial spot where I could go work with a traditional smith for a year or more... If I was young and without a mortgage and family that's what I would do... But Im not and I cant.... so I have to figure out how to do things the best I can with what I got. Try and glean as much information and help along the way as possible... I get to play with metal every day... somedays with a milling machine... somedays with a forge... but every day I learn something about the metal and it keeps me coming back for more...

[ThomasPowers]

I keep coming back to the thought of "skilled labour"; if everyone in the shop is a skilled smith then a lot of smithing methods may be faster as everyone can do what needs to be done without oversight. If a lot of the workers are not skilled smiths and may only work for you a year or two before moving on then some of the fab processes are a lot easier to teach and turn them loose.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Monstermetal,i agree with everything you say most wholeheartedly.Machinery is lovely,(even in and of itself,if one loves metal).The deformation done with a press or a powerhammer can teach one everything about deformation,if one's paying attention,maybe even more than hand-forging(just like you say,because of the immense concentration of force).
I bet that you're better with a hand-hammer than you let on,and good for you.But,in short,ALL of these things are crucially important.And the reduction tools as well-plazma/gas,welding,even laser or water-jet in some cases.

What's very important is this,(and i'll do my best to try to explain,though sometimes i think that i'm simply nuts):The Job.
We all gots to work.When the job manifests itself,it's WE,with our experience of the ways that the metal moves,MUST design it for the customer,based on the many factors involved.

Two things stuck in my mind from reading about S.Yellin.One was that no matter how small the job is it must be done so as to project that same,undefinable QUALITY that the biggest and the most imposing projects do.So,the smith has no right to ever compromise that,lest he risks spitting in the well from whence we all drink,et c.
HOW it's accomplished-wether by a minute chisel cut,or a incredible effect of your there giant hammer-matters not.The effect is what counts,on all counts.


Another Yellin wisdom comes to mind,when he roundly abused the architects at their congress for mixing their metaphors,like asking him to cast bronze to look like forgework,et c.But mainly for submitting substandard designs and then hiding behind,supposedly,the customer's wishes,budget constrains,et c.
In my opinion,since we now work mostly directly with a customer,it is now applicable to us smiths.We need to educate the consumer,uphold what is valuable in ironwork,and never compromise that.Scale down the scope of the project,if the budget is skimpy,anything,but retain the QUALITY.
In that way your tooling is fantastic,it can make a world of difference to a job(needless to say).

So,it really is all about the job.
Thus,maybe,if a right job comes along,maybe you can call on someone you know,that does the kind of work that you yourself may not be confident at,at first at least,and then the two of you can cooperate on that to everyone's great advantage.
I work with some people i know in Fairbanks,timberframers,logbuilders,masons,and other craftsmen.We've in the past discussed a possibility of creating a Craftsman Directory,of sorts,whereby if a job came along one can easier try to line up the right guys with scills suited best for this kind of a project.

But first,there must be a demand for this(any)kind of work,for naturally none of us can afford to create ironwork for s...ts&grins.And we DO have the control of creating such work,to a point.And with that,the skill will come!Once it becomes again necessary,and is (lavishly )compensated.

It's all up to us!

Beautiful shop and the tools in the background!There's no limit to what you can do with a set-up like that!Best of luck!

[Mainely,Bob]

I`m going to ask a rhetorical question here and see if anybody can answer it because I sure couldn`t;
"Why are the people who have the least to prove always the ones so eager to explain themselves?"

This came from a student hitchhiking on our conversation when a bunch of us were discussing much the same things we`re talking about here.
This same student,after making us all speechless,went on to ask two simple questions;
"Do you enjoy what you do?"To which we all agreed that we love what we do.
"Then why should any of this other stuff matter?",again we were speechless.

Very few of us get to do what we love doing.Most people don`t even have a clue how to find something they love doing so they settle for something they find the least offensive yet pays the bills.
We are truly fortunate.Let`s enjoy our good fortune and do all we can to pass that good fortune on to others so they can experience it too rather than stand with our peers and split hairs.

[monstermetal]

Well I don't have an answer personally other than I enjoy sharing my opinion and point of view. I don't feel the need to defend my feelings or prove my understanding. (most of the time anyway) I agree Bob we are a lucky bunch and we are all family with a common tie. I also know that many times I overshare and say plenty that probably does not need said But often I learn more from putting out my feelings and opinion and getting feedback, positive or negative

I am guilty of beating a dead horse

[Frosty]

Well said Jake. It's a point I find myself trying to explain pretty frequently. It's the person who does the work, not tools, equipment or anything else. The quality of the work is determined mostly by the craftsman though sometimes circumstances may dictate as in an emergency. It doesn't matter how good a tool is, without a person to direct it it's just highly refined dirt.

Nicely to the point Bob. In other words; "The empty drum is the loudest." I used to get a lot of empty drums at demos and the fastest way to quiet them is offer them the hammer. Those who can, Do. Those who can't, talk a lot and often most authoratatively.

This is more like family than many places I visit. We not only have a number of things in common, many of us have been at this long enough to know there're lots of different ways to do a thing. That often leads us to listen to how someone else does a thing, heck it may be EASIER! I'm always in favor of finding an easier way to do things.

I rarely find posts here I think are too long even if I don't have time to read them or I've read the same thing before, heck, maybe written the same thing myself. Hanging with the guys, swapping stories, problems and solutions is as good as it gets, all that's missing here is a campfire and mugs of suitable beverages.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Ahhh, get to work already!

[fciron]

Larry made an interesting point that almost slipped through. He said he knows a lot about how metal moves under pressure. I often tell people that being a good smith (in the able-to-hammer-stuff-out sense) is in the head and the eye, rather than the hands. I know how the metal moves, I know where I want it to go, so I just hit it in the way that will make it go there. (I also try to do things that are possible )

If Larry were forced to work without all his toys tomorrow, he would mostly need to build up his hammer swinging endurance, not his smithing knowledge.

[Mainely,Bob]

Ahhh, get to work already!

I`m speechless,and that`s a rare thing! :)

[Mainely,Bob]

Nicely to the point Bob. In other words; "The empty drum is the loudest." I used to get a lot of empty drums at demos and the fastest way to quiet them is offer them the hammer. Those who can, Do. Those who can't, talk a lot and often most authoratatively.
Frosty the Lucky.

From Frosty`s post I realized I may have worded things wrongly.
What I meant to say was "why is it that those who least need to prove something are usually those most likely to explain themselves"
In other words he was telling us we already knew the trade and had proven ourselves as craftsmen,why then did we continue to try and define the word craftsman?

[chyancarrek]

What I meant to say was

You said it beautifully the first time Bob . . . no need to explain yourself . . . .

[yesteryearforge]

So I am speaking of personal experience. I am a tool and machine guy.

Is that a Brent Bailey hammer laying on the anvil ?

[monstermetal]

Is that a Brent Bailey hammer laying on the anvil ?

Yep.... Not my favorite Brent Bailey hammer though....

[jake pogrebinsky]

Ahhh, get to work already!

"Work is the curse of the drinking class",O.Wilde

Hey!B.s.ing on the internet IS work!Becides,it's a direct responsibility of a blacksmith,and i'm a proper village blacksmith,and a day does not go by that many villagers don't stop off to b.s.And every village drunk,certainly.So i've grown to like it,and gotten very good at it.(Being a village drunk is a surprising amount of work too,makes me glad to be only a blacksmith).

Bob!Mea culpa,i'm often the first to derail the otherwise constructive discussion into the nebula,the 'isness of the was',as some put it.

However,here,i'm not really beating a dead horse,but(to me)a vey live and germaine one:Namely,how,exactly,is it possible to substitute some of the archaic/less efficient methods with newer/technologically involved/but vastly labor/fuel saving ones?AND to do so without loosing the quality that i try to maintain?

The abstract interests me not at all.We did cover that nicely.But the very concrete,nuts and bolts?Can we discuss that,would anybody be interested?

Here's the very concrete case,this same set of hinges.I'm up to about 16 hours shop time on them,and it'll take anoter 4.20 hours of work is inexcusable for an object only worth X amount of dollars.

Now,even i,an ignoramus in such,know very well that with using certain tools i could cut a very significant chunk off that time.(Again,without compromising quality).
I tend to think that as a craftsman it is my job to do so,and i'm remiss in not doing it.
I owe it to the customer,and meself both.

I ran out of propane(that's $200+ in fuel this week with no prospect of sales of junk even on the horizon),and decided to drill the collars for the rivets instead.

So that is why i'm interested in this discussion,it's simply vital to my survival.

And,just so you won't think me a tool-less bum,here's my 21st century tooling!I'm an evil anti-traditionalist afterall!

I thought that maybe Larry at least would like to see that.It's a classic,20" Champion camelback,modified for a '53 Chevy gear-box.Two ranges original to the press,so it's 6 speeds forward,2 reverse.#4 Morse.I've only have bits to 2",though this thing will turn anything.Ought to forge a dough-mixing arm for it,i like the taste some 90-W in my bread-dough.

[Mainely,Bob]

Well Jake,not knowing your approach to the work I would say look at your time and see where you can cut that first.
If you`re going thru the entire ceremony of firing up your forge to set a couple rivets and charging by the hour then unfurling the OA hose/torch and embracing Mr Victor just makes more sense.Likewise if you`re spending a ton of time on stock prep and other early on jobs that an apprentice could do then they make a whole lot of high tech apprentice replacers these days.
Which would you really rather do,spend several thou a year on fueling the forge or spend several thou on an induction unit from Grant and cut both your fuel bills and your time waiting for the material to come up to heat?

What you`re asking is basically the same thing any business struggles with,where do I spend my dollars to best improve productivity.The exception is that you want to "stay true to the craft".In the end the metal doesn`t know or care if it was heated in an induction forge or a coal forge.Neither can it tell if you cut it with a chisel or a plasma cutter.If the material doesn`t know or care then why do we think the customer does?
What it comes down to is being able to separate how much of the work we are doing for the customer and how much we are doing strictly for ourselves.The best value for dollar and usually the most efficient way is to eliminate all of "your" work and do only what is needed,everything else is added on just to please or impress somebody.How much are you allowed to charge for impressing your friends and neighbors?

An excellent analogy is one in woodworking as I am also an avid hand tool user in that too.We were rehashing the old "sanded vs hand planed" debate and tossing around words like "clarity of finish" and "chatoyance" when a high end production WWer stopped the show by saying he had been in the business for over 20 years and had never had a customer run their hand down a surface and say to their friends "that surface there was planed by a #7 Union plane from the early 1900s sharpened with both a slight camber and a 3 degree micro-bevel" before opening their wallet.
Kind of took the wind out of our sails.
It also put things in perspective,the best approach is whatever moves you thru the work at a steady pace and leaves you with an acceptable result that the customer is both happy with and willing to pay for.The rest is fantasy and indulgence.

[ianinsa]

That sounds quite clever Ian.... I dont suppose you have photos of a joint or the tooling?

Hi Jake, as I'm in a looooong moving process I sadly have none with me at present, however I'm on my way to the shop that I partner with in Abu Dhabi on thursday so I'm going to swing past my shop in Kyalami,Johannesburg on wednesday and take some pics of the tooling,I will try to post them when I get back next wednesday.

You also noted"I wish I was in a financial spot where I could go work with a traditional smith for a year or more... If I was young and without a mortgage and family that's what I would do... But Im not and I cant.... so I have to figure out how to do things the best I can with what I got. Try and glean as much information and help along the way as possible... I get to play with metal every day... somedays with a milling machine... somedays with a forge... but every day I learn something about the metal and it keeps me coming back for more..."I think it was you anyhow and if I'm mistaken please acsept my apologies.

I am in the strange position where I work both in the first world and in the third world and getting to 'cross-over' as well.
There are some aspects of my work that would make Bob(I mean this respectfully Bob) shudder and others smile!

My customer base ranges from heritage societies, Midle eastern royalty, 5* hotels and comercial property developers to 'Others, those that like golden and shiny,flashy things.

The last lot are not my customer of choise but are a significant portion of turnover!(certainly far too large to be ignored)

Our set-up in Al Ain, Abu Dhabi caters mostly to this segment of the market, we employ 4 traditional blacksmiths from India
and 2 casting specialists from Egypt- all these guys fall into the luddite culture(unknowingly) and we have 1 Egyptian and 2 Syrian smiths that 'drive' the chinese machines. this crowd will make an amaising leaf and then copy cast buckets of aluminium copies with a mild steel stem for arc welding onto a 'framework'. This 'frame' is made up from profilled/textured stock, spat out from a chinese made metal-work machine. The end product is then painted black with Painted gold/copper/bronze acsents(This makes my wife an interior Designer shudder) as per the local market requirements. All this takes place in an uninsulated metal structure ie forging,casting and arc welding with the temp in the shade of 45deg C.We also import for own use from Damascus hundreds of ready made leaves, formed/twisted(I only wish I knew how) tubes etc.

We also produce copper roofing with large ornate corbels and wrought iron gates thet would not look out of place on a European palace(typically costing in the region of $100 000) We also produced with the exeption of a few pieces, all the wrought iron and wrought aliminiun furtiture for the 5* One and Only hotel in Dubai.Thi from my shop in Johannesburg.

Some of my employees have said things like 'I wo'nt put my hand to shite' when asked to produce what I would consider cheap crappy goods for some customers 'As per their request' and sadly those guys have gone their way!

I prefer to make 'nice,Quality products' however in our time I believe that we have to acsept that there are horses for courses ind if you need the turnover you have to be flexible

Ian

[ianinsa]

Well Jake,not knowing your approach to the work I would say look at your time and see where you can cut that first.

Sorry Bob,
I missed this one.........And to think I had you down for a 'Purist' You seem an even better guy than the one I took you for
With regards to unfurling the OA hose/torch, we have in our shops a rather special torch(skinflint model)- change the regular cutting nozzle
for a split nozzle and substitute the Acetelene with propane = works like a dream and costs much less to run!
regards Ian