I have a dumb question about hammer and rhythm

[Mainely,Bob]

Bob, I feel it's a matter of training. I have never used a striker and may not ever. Should I train? How about all the folks out there who go to the rental yard and have a trackhoe, dozer, and yes ya can even rent a small crane.
Delivered no questions asked. I do agree comercial operators(riggers) should be trained. However the backyard smith
might not. And the master said "when i nod my head hit it hard" The helper is now the master.
Ken

There seems to be a disconnect between what I said and what you thought I said.

What I said was that when dealing with things like suspended loads and cranes where there are usually several thousand pounds of something swinging thru the air and more than just 2 people involved there are standardized procedures in place to minimize the risk to all involved and those procedures,to include a set of standardized hand signals that everyone MUST use and understand,will be adhered to or the job and the contractor will be shut down and heavily fined at best if anyone who has any authority gets wind of it.
These rule are in place for some very good reasons.

When it`s just you and your buddy out in the yard/shop you can do as you see fit,crane or no crane.Just don`t expect your homeowner`s insurance to cover you when things go south with the quickness.
Bottoms up boys!

[Dan P.]

How I learned smith & striker was, on extracting the work from the fire the smith says; "yes please, Mr.X", and then the smith and Mr.X go to until the smith says something like "whoa!" or "that's it!" or "thank you!".
As far as rythm goes, you need to have a striker that knows what is going on. They need to be a smith themselves. Also, as a lefty, I can tell you it is also important to have the smith and striker/strikers of all the same handedness, otherwise hammers can clash.
Luckily for us, the use of strikers is now mostly obsolete, and I think the tippy-tappy striker signals are essentially showmanship, enjoyable none the less.
Dan

[Frosty]

It's about communications. There are many times when experience makes communications unnecessary. For instance most of our drill crew worked together for upwards of 19 years and we'd go days without saying a word about the job itself. We talked about kids, sports, weather, locals, etc. but not what we were doing. When we'd be breaking in a new guy he'd need almost constant direction, even worse were the geologists who'd fill in for our guy.

The last time I worked with a striker he'd never struck before and was very new to smithing. We were making an anvil devil so he could cut stock in period without abusing his anvil. What we did was drive a piece of coil spring into the 60* V notch on my swage block with a narrow straight pein flatter kind of top tool thing I've had for years. Being inexperienced I had to lay out exactly what he needed to do and tell him when, where and how on every blow.

Being as he's a member of the local club he and a buddy come out every now and then and we'll be doing some striking so he can get some experience with coordinated operations. I don't know if I'd call it training per se but I'm sure places and times where striking was the industry standard there was training but probably more as part of learning the craft than as a "job."

Whatever you do, if you are striking or having someone strike for you you MUST work out a system of communicating that works be it taps on the anvil, words, shakes and nods of the head or what I'm more likely to do, point for a hammer or top tool change. A really good way to bring a striker up to speed is have them holding the tongs and top tools while you strike.

Frosty the Lucky.

[bigfootnampa]

Those strikes on the anvil may mean more than just keeping rhythm. "The smith calls the helper by three blows on the anvil with his hammer, and when the smith wants the helper to cease striking he taps with the hammer twice on the anvil." That quote from Modern Blacksmithing 1904 by J. G. Holmstrom. It is archived online and I link to the page where I found this quote (in the first paragraph).

"Modern Blacksmithing 1904"

[mashin' metal]

I love this forum :-)

[Dan P.]

Those strikes on the anvil may mean more than just keeping rhythm. "The smith calls the helper by three blows on the anvil with his hammer, and when the smith wants the helper to cease striking he taps with the hammer twice on the anvil." That quote from Modern Blacksmithing 1904 by J. G. Holmstrom. It is archived online and I link to the page where I found this quote (in the first paragraph).

"Modern Blacksmithing 1904"

Mr. J.G.Holmstrom, God love him, is to be taken with a pinch of salt. "The smith calls the helper by three blows on the anvil". What was the helper doing? Playing cards? Making a phone call? Doing a little Boxersize?
I can't help but believe that the whole smith & striker signals on the anvil thing is only so much guff put about by people who simply must have an opinion on everything, like Mr. J.G.Holmstrom.

[Bob S]

I can't help but believe that the whole smith & striker signals on the anvil thing is only so much guff put about by people who simply must have an opinion on everything,

gee I wonder?

Bob

[John B]

I can't help but believe that the whole smith & striker signals on the anvil thing is only so much guff

Oh ye of little experience,

I never used the system described, but did, and do use a similar type of guidance when having the need for a striker, a good striker is rarer than rocking horse manure these days, it was, and is a specialist skill in its own right.

These systems and other apparently quirky things (like arc curved hammer heads) were developed because they worked, and they were efficient,

How many out there have 4 or more irons in the forge fire at one time and working them, not in a gas forge, but coke/coal forge?

The ones who do are in a minority and have respect for their predecessors, because they know how hard they worked, no time to play at it like a lot do.

If you want to go on and talk about the quality of work produced by the old traditional blacksmiths, well thats a whole new can of worms.

[arftist]

Mr. J.G.Holmstrom, God love him, is to be taken with a pinch of salt. "The smith calls the helper by three blows on the anvil". What was the helper doing? Playing cards? Making a phone call? Doing a little Boxersize?
I can't help but believe that the whole smith & striker signals on the anvil thing is only so much guff put about by people who simply must have an opinion on everything, like Mr. J.G.Holmstrom.

I don't know about that. I was a lead faricator in a huge railing shop a couple winters ago. One of the better workers there a fellow who had come over from Portugal after working in blacksmith shops there his whole life. Though we had a self contained hammer there, it was often easier to do quick things on the anvil, with a stiker, rather than hook up the power hammer. When I needed help, I would ring the anvil, and he would stop welding, or grinding or whatever other WORK he was doing, and run over with a sledge hammer in his hands. In a busy loud shop, a ringing anvil is efficient comunication. Our only other signal was that he hit where I hit, and if I stopped hammering he stopped. I did use
the big Salinher (spl) once, and you should have seen the look on that guys face. He had clearly never seen a power hammer before, likely why he was a good striker.

[arftist]

Luckily for us, the use of strikers is now mostly obsolete, and I think the tippy-tappy striker signals are essentially showmanship, enjoyable none the less.
Dan

The only thing obsolete about my striker is that he is almost 60 years old, and has been stiking for me since the late 80s. How does a helper become obsolete? There are things I can do in a flypress now that don't require a striker, but not everyone has a flypress, plus for one step, it is often faster to use an existing top tool and a striker than to make flypress tooling. I suppose a treadle hammer can also replace a striker but I am still not seeing obsolete.

[John B]

In a busy loud shop, a ringing anvil is efficient comunication. Our only other signal was that he hit where I hit, and if I stopped hammering he stopped. He had clearly never seen a power hammer before, likely why he was a good striker.

Now it seems they spend more time trying to make an anvil quiet rather than listen to it sing, usually get more bounce back on a singer, and they aren't singing loud if you are striking hot metal.

My old striker was in his eighties before he succumbed to be called by a higher authority, Not obsolete, but a rarity, and thats why I have to go to alternative methods in my own workshop to try to replace his contribution.

Amazing how you can communicate with other foreign smiths' without speaking isn't it.

[arftist]

Amazing how you can communicate with other foreign smiths' without speaking isn't it.

Yes it is. I have had similar experiences in the past as well. Metal has it's own language.

[Mainely,Bob]

I worked in a plant with Russian,Polish and other European metal workers(it was a German owned company)and when work needed to be done in the noisy plant we all worked well together with little talking involved.We could all fall into a system and rhythm when swinging hammers,hot steel or both.
The same held true in Texas working with Spanish speaking co-workers.
I`d have to agree metal has it`s own common language.

[Dan P.]

gee I wonder?

Bob

Ha! Point elegantly made!

[Dan P.]

Oh ye of little experience,

I never used the system described, but did, and do use a similar type of guidance when having the need for a striker, a good striker is rarer than rocking horse manure these days, it was, and is a specialist skill in its own right.

These systems and other apparently quirky things (like arc curved hammer heads) were developed because they worked, and they were efficient,

How many out there have 4 or more irons in the forge fire at one time and working them, not in a gas forge, but coke/coal forge?

The ones who do are in a minority and have respect for their predecessors, because they know how hard they worked, no time to play at it like a lot do.

If you want to go on and talk about the quality of work produced by the old traditional blacksmiths, well thats a whole new can of worms.

Traditional blacksmiths, in this country at least, traditionally used the traditional method of vocal commands, which they found most effective in communicating with persons sometimes located up to three yards away! Sometimes even eye contact was used!!

[John B]

Traditional blacksmiths, in this country at least, traditionally used the traditional method of vocal commands, which they found most effective in communicating with persons sometimes located up to three yards away! Sometimes even eye contact was used!!

Are we talking UK? you don't have your location posted in your ID yet (London UK), if so I don't know where you got that from, or where you served your apprenticeship,

In the steelworks in Sheffield, you only got shouted at if you got it wrong, And eye contact?, not when striking.

Anybody else had experience of vocal commands instead of signals?

(Apart from anyone on our courses being on the receiving end of a shouted, "Get it Hot and Hit It" or some such other directive.)

[Dan P.]

Are we talking UK? you don't have your location posted in your ID yet (London UK), if so I don't know where you got that from, or where you served your apprenticeship,

In the steelworks in Sheffield, you only got shouted at if you got it wrong, And eye contact?, not when striking.

Anybody else had experience of vocal commands instead of signals?

(Apart from anyone on our courses being on the receiving end of a shouted, "Get it Hot and Hit It" or some such other directive.)

Yes, UK. London, in fact, the capital city!

In this country I have only ever seen people do the elaborate hammer signals as a "demonstration", never as something that working people actually do.

Re; eye contact- your striker should be watching, should he not, and waiting?

[John B]

Yes, UK. London, in fact, the capital city!

In this country I have only ever seen people do the elaborate hammer signals as a "demonstration", never as something that working people actually do.

Re; eye contact- your striker should be watching, should he not, and waiting?

This is possibly getting a little pedantic now, but how often have you been in the working environment when strikers were a normal feature? I know of no forges now where they are working full time strikers,indeed personally I can't think of many forges in the last thirty years that had the luxury of employing full time strikers, Powerhammers and other methods have made them redundant by and large which is why you get the "elaborate" (exaggerated) demo's, that is usually the performance put on for the public, not necessarily how it was.

As for eye contact, yes they were watching, and they knew what was required of them, the eye contact was with the tools and metal, not each other. And as for waiting, they were usually preparing for what they new was coming, getting tooling ready etc

When regular strikers were used, the rapport was uncanny, there was almost a feeling of telepathy between strikers and Master, pure magic.

To go back to your previous post, apologies, re vocal commands, occasionally they would be used, usually when punching or chasing or other processes where the master had both hands in use to position tool and workpiece in relation to each other, but even then nods were used mainly. In my experience it was rare to hear spoken commands/indicators.

Probably showing my age now.

[Francis Trez Cole]

the way I was instructed was where the lead blacksmith strikes the striker strikes if he dose not strike you don't srtike. nothing has to be said and the lead has to set the pace as well and know the abilities of the striker. and make desisions with out hesitation

[bigfootnampa]

Well I guess we haven't settled anything, but Isn't this FUN!?!? One thing I do see is how a signal could outflank language differences and ambient noise levels and it seems to me that eye contact would be quite dangerous when all attention should be focused on the work on the anvil. Looking about should be discouraged I would think.

[Mainely,Bob]

Well I guess we haven't settled anything, but Isn't this FUN!?!? One thing I do see is how a signal could outflank language differences and ambient noise levels and it seems to me that eye contact would be quite dangerous when all attention should be focused on the work on the anvil. Looking about should be discouraged I would think.

Quite right.
Having had to work amid the din of heavy manufacturing machinery I can tell you that you need to have your ducks in a row before you get into the thick of things.
Telepathy is wishful thinking!If you want things to progress smoothly and safely then a well thought out and practiced signaling system is essential.

Anyone who doesn`t see the merit in this type of system is someone who has never had to work under conditions that warrant such a system.Till they do they will never understand.