I have a dumb question about hammer and rhythm

[mashin' metal]

I see vids where a master and apprentice will be wailing on something and if whoever is lead hammer decides to look at the work, they still tap the anvil lightly as if to keep rhythm I dunno.
whats up?

[Rob Browne]

Yep, keepin the rhytymn. Its one of the hardest parts of striking like that and once started its easier to keep the rhythmn than re-establish it in another run.

[mashin' metal]

well, it looked like he was screwing the masters rhythm up sometimes.

[Frosty]

If you want to see some rythm check out the old timy footage from the old ship works. I don't have the links handy due to a recent crash but the one where they guys are forge welding an anchor ring is a hot steel ballet with IIRC a dozen smiths with double bit hammers.

As a general rule I'm not an anvil tapper, I can keep my rythm just fine but when working with a striker making sure everybody's in sync is important so you do whatever you need to.

What I didn't see in this video were signals, the master can signal for a strike type, change, etc. with the hammer. This isn't necessary if they can hear each other well enough but it isn't a surprising thing for a blacksmith to be hard of hearing.

Frosty the Lucky.

[MattBower]

Do you mean this one, Frosty?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D6-w1g3_30

I also love this one, though it has nothing to do with welding:

Now that's a hammer.

Can you say radiant heat? Can anyone explain to me what the powdery material is that the one guy keeps throwing on the billet?

[MattBower]

Or maybe this one? Awesome. See 4:56.

[mashin' metal]

If you want to see some rythm check out the old timy footage from the old ship works. I don't have the links handy due to a recent crash but the one where they guys are forge welding an anchor ring is a hot steel ballet with IIRC a dozen smiths with double bit hammers.

As a general rule I'm not an anvil tapper, I can keep my rythm just fine but when working with a striker making sure everybody's in sync is important so you do whatever you need to.

What I didn't see in this video were signals, the master can signal for a strike type, change, etc. with the hammer. This isn't necessary if they can hear each other well enough but it isn't a surprising thing for a blacksmith to be hard of hearing.

Frosty the Lucky.

I think in the one I posted, the apprentice is lead and he does the signalling with either a tap or a drag of the hammer face, "I think the drag means its all good and I got it from here" and the master backs away while the apprentice finishes. I look at this video and think it must be an honor for a young man to stumble across a mentor such as he and be able to apprentice and carry on the old masters legacy of knowledge and skill. The master must be proud of his student when he sees this video I'll bet, notice the kids hammer angles and strokes and planting them where he is supposed to be.

[Fe-Wood]

That apprentice, lead hammer is Tsur Sadan, He is every bit the master Tom Clark, striker was, may he rest in piece. Tsur trained with Uri Hofi and has become an outstanding teacher himself.

Matt B. I've often wondered what that powder is too. Given the age of the footage they could be forge welding a huge billet of wrought iron and the powder is flux. Just a guess

[edge9001]

those shipwright videos, I only have one word to say. humbling. to think those huge anchors were hand forged, be it by many hands. what a task.

[mashin' metal]

those shipwright videos, I only have one word to say. humbling. to think those huge anchors were hand forged, be it by many hands. what a task.

and to think if there was a shoulders width room, someone stood in it and started swinging a hammer and never struck another. wow! just wow! OSHA would have had a field day indeed :-)

[MattBower]

Yeah, that scene at the end of the third one, where they're riveting the shackle pin? I love when the one guy comes up and there are already a half-dozen or more guys striking, and he just waits a couple seconds to pick up the rhythm, then jumps right in. It reminds me of a kid jumping into a game of double Dutch, except the consequences of a mistake are a lot scarier.

[Frank Turley]

This is the Uri Hofi style of striking. The "master" is the young guy; he's calling the shots. He stands by the side of the anvil heel. The striker stands to one side of the horn, so that he can touch the horn with his sledge when needed in order to start and preserve the rhythm. The rhythm is metronomic, not iambic. Tsur Sadan told me that it took him quite a while to catch on to this striking method. To fully understand the signaling, you would probably need to take a workshop that would explain everything.

I don't use that method in my school, but there are many striking/signaling methods.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

[mashin' metal]

This is the Uri Hofi style of striking. The "master" is the young guy; he's calling the shots. He stands by the side of the anvil heel. The striker stands to one side of the horn, so that he can touch the horn with his sledge when needed in order to start and preserve the rhythm. The rhythm is metronomic, not iambic. Tsur Sadan told me that it took him quite a while to catch on to this striking method. To fully understand the signaling, you would probably need to take a workshop that would explain everything.

I don't use that method in my school, but there are many striking/signaling methods.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

beautiful! thanks for the explanation! I agree, in this video, the young guy is the leader and dictating with hammer signals and now I understand there is a method to the madness, but in real world, is the old guy the master and the young guy is the apprentice, although, hes advanced now, was that the situation then and he is now/then stepping back and allowing the young apprentice to call the shots.

[John B]

beautiful! thanks for the explanation! I agree, in this video, the young guy is the leader and dictating with hammer signals and now I understand there is a method to the madness, but in real world, is the old guy the master and the young guy is the apprentice, although, hes advanced now, was that the situation then and he is now/then stepping back and allowing the young apprentice to call the shots.

I'd say the old guy is the Master, this method gets the young guy to sweat. (I like energy saving especially when its mine I'm saving)

The young guy may think he's calling the shots, but each hit is being observed after being struck, and if it is not right the striker doesn't have to swing and the workpiece can be easily corrected and put back on track if necessary.

This is how the apprentice is assessed on their performance, when no corrective action is necessary after many varied and comprehensive situations, they can then pass to the next level.

[the other dave]

The first video was made at Tom Clark's blacksmithing school/shop. I saw Tom and Tsur strike together several times and I wouldn't call it master/apprentice but rather team striking where the person utilizing the hand hammer is directing the heavier blows of the two-handed hammerer. Notice where Tsur strikes the anvil which signals Tom to stop hitting the piece while Tsur inspects the work and moves it on the anvil face. As Tom explained it to me when I was there, the striker(s) hit where the small hammers hits and hits with a similar blow, that is soft follows soft and hard follows hard. Tsur sliding his hammer at the end was the signal that the striker, Tom, should stop hammering. This then allowed Tsur to make corrections to the piece as he deemed necessary. Before the beginning of the video, Tsur would strike the anvil once and Tom would answer with an anvil strike, sort of a "are you ready?" and a "yes" answer.

[mashin' metal]

The first video was made at Tom Clark's blacksmithing school/shop. I saw Tom and Tsur strike together several times and I wouldn't call it master/apprentice but rather team striking where the person utilizing the hand hammer is directing the heavier blows of the two-handed hammerer. Notice where Tsur strikes the anvil which signals Tom to stop hitting the piece while Tsur inspects the work and moves it on the anvil face. As Tom explained it to me when I was there, the striker(s) hit where the small hammers hits and hits with a similar blow, that is soft follows soft and hard follows hard. Tsur sliding his hammer at the end was the signal that the striker, Tom, should stop hammering. This then allowed Tsur to make corrections to the piece as he deemed necessary. Before the beginning of the video, Tsur would strike the anvil once and Tom would answer with an anvil strike, sort of a "are you ready?" and a "yes" answer.

for some reason out of all the videos I have been watching , and I mean watching the people, mannerisms, blows, angles etc etc, This one really jumps out to me, awesome.

[Frosty]

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of Matt though it's not quite what I recall. I remember all the guys but in my minds eye they were all swinging hammers instead of handling the ring. Darn TREE!

While I never got to meet Tom or Tsur the video is very much an exercise in coordination between a couple masterful smiths. The only signal was indeed the "done" slide and Tsur did a little fine tuning afterwards.

The little taps were just to set the timing, not signals. I'm sure they both knew what the goal was so there wasn't need for specific signals. Either could've lead or "mastered" the process for the other and hardly spoken a word. Seriously, with an eye for the process you can see where the next blow needs to go watching the video. That doesn't mean that's where the lead is going to put it but there's a logic and proceedure to it.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Frosty]

I saw this Youtube link on the NWBA site. A little something from the rythm section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUkhpOB40GM&feature=player_embedded#!

Hope it comes through.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Fe-Wood]

1 o the best :D

[mashin' metal]

I saw this Youtube link on the NWBA site. A little something from the rythm section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUkhpOB40GM&feature=player_embedded#!

Hope it comes through.

Frosty the Lucky.

awesome

[the other dave]

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of Matt though it's not quite what I recall. I remember all the guys but in my minds eye they were all swinging hammers instead of handling the ring. Darn TREE!

While I never got to meet Tom or Tsur the video is very much an exercise in coordination between a couple masterful smiths. The only signal was indeed the "done" slide and Tsur did a little fine tuning afterwards.

The little taps were just to set the timing, not signals. I'm sure they both knew what the goal was so there wasn't need for specific signals. Either could've lead or "mastered" the process for the other and hardly spoken a word. Seriously, with an eye for the process you can see where the next blow needs to go watching the video. That doesn't mean that's where the lead is going to put it but there's a logic and proceedure to it.

Frosty the Lucky.

Sorry but I have to sort of disagree with you about the single taps. Really wish this video started with teh work piece being removed from the fire and being brought to the anvil. Tsur and the other Israli smith demonstrated team striking at the ABANA conference this year. One would be demonstrating how to make a tool and the other would be the striker. Always started with the single tap and a response tap from the striker.

[Frosty]

Never having met nor seen a demo by them I'll bow to your experience Dave. Maybe I just wasn't clear enough about my observation.

What I meant by no signals wasn't quite right. I meant no complicated signals like I've seen on occasion but the starting taps to establish the timing are most certainly signals.

Doing more complicated signaling on a You Tube video would require a narrator to avoid confusion. By more complicated signals, say a brief drumm roll of the lead hammer to indicate a change of the striker's hammer face or hammer itself. To be effective the lead and striker need to establish these things in advance, just like giving hand signals to a crane operator for a different operation or one you haven't worked with before.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Mainely,Bob]

Doing more complicated signaling on a You Tube video would require a narrator to avoid confusion. By more complicated signals, say a brief drumm roll of the lead hammer to indicate a change of the striker's hammer face or hammer itself. To be effective the lead and striker need to establish these things in advance, just like giving hand signals to a crane operator for a different operation or one you haven't worked with before.

Frosty the Lucky.

Frosty,There are such things as standardized hand signals for directing cranes.
The people who are using whatever they have devised probably do it because they don`t know that correct standardized signals exist.
If an operator doesn`t understand or refuses to abide by standard hand signals competent riggers will refuse to work with that operator.
As someone who has worked as a rigger in the past I can tell you that the lives and safety of everyone in the immediate vicinity of a suspended load depend on an operator`s immediately complying with direction from his rigger who serves as his eyes on the ground and the load.There is absolutely no room for seat of the pants flying,ad-libing or cowboy BS.That`s how people lose parts,the kind that involve flesh and blood.

[Frosty]

Frosty,There are such things as standardized hand signals for directing cranes.
The people who are using whatever they have devised probably do it because they don`t know that correct standardized signals exist.
If an operator doesn`t understand or refuses to abide by standard hand signals competent riggers will refuse to work with that operator.
As someone who has worked as a rigger in the past I can tell you that the lives and safety of everyone in the immediate vicinity of a suspended load depend on an operator`s immediately complying with direction from his rigger who serves as his eyes on the ground and the load.There is absolutely no room for seat of the pants flying,ad-libing or cowboy BS.That`s how people lose parts,the kind that involve flesh and blood.

You're dead right on that of course Bob. I was a driller for almost 20 years and have spent a lot of time around suspended loads, cranes and helicopters. If I'd thought about it I could've come up with a better example. Establishing clear signals isn't usually necessary around things like cranes, most operators are union, been to school and passed the cert exams to get a seat. Still, on occasion we'd have to establish what we needed and a signal, our smaller drills had some odd parts and special requirements to sling, position and mount.

A better example probably would've been signaling an unfamiliar forklift operator or one on an unfamiliar fork. Any good operator will stop and let the ground guy know if s/he doesn't understand a signal. It happened the first time I operated an offroad highlift fork erecting my shop, I'd never run something with an extending boom. It took all of maybe 10 seconds for Donald and I to get me up to speed on the signals.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Dragons lair]

Frosty,There are such things as standardized hand signals for directing cranes.
The people who are using whatever they have devised probably do it because they don`t know that correct standardized signals exist.
If an operator doesn`t understand or refuses to abide by standard hand signals competent riggers will refuse to work with that operator.
As someone who has worked as a rigger in the past I can tell you that the lives and safety of everyone in the immediate vicinity of a suspended load depend on an operator`s immediately complying with direction from his rigger who serves as his eyes on the ground and the load.There is absolutely no room for seat of the pants flying,ad-libing or cowboy BS.That`s how people lose parts,the kind that involve flesh and blood.

Bob, I feel it's a matter of training. I have never used a striker and may not ever. Should I train? How about all the folks out there who go to the rental yard and have a trackhoe, dozer, and yes ya can even rent a small crane.
Delivered no questions asked. I do agree comercial operators(riggers) should be trained. However the backyard smith
might not. And the master said "when i nod my head hit it hard" The helper is now the master.
Ken