die making

[Michael T]

hello everyone. I am interested in making dies for air hammers and mabey hydraullic press or something. looking at spear heads leaves and mabey a bit of stamping on bar for picketts. I think its on the line of forging what you like then inprinting it on 2 bits of heated block and making them form together on a spring. I have seen some really cool tennon jigs and some for balls but what about making cool spear heads for onamental work like gates and security screens and such. what are the advantages of doing things hydraulicly. So question is where do i get information like that on the web on how to make dies and what applications do you use to get them imprinted on dies. so come on fellows everyone has a suggestion. your help will be much appreciated. i already have a workshop and 3 phase power.

[orgtwister]

well how much you got to spend depends on how you would do it you could pay a tool and die maker or you could get some good steel and cut ,grind ,machine it into the blocks of steel to you get the shape you want just remember that its a mirror image in the die wether or not this is the right way it has worked for me in the past when i had to forge a large quantiy of old military parts for a place i worked at some time ago

[dablacksmith]

well off center forge makes some pre made ones might ask him ... ive got a couple of his and they work well . mostly used under power hammer tho a press will work . good luck!

[Michael T]

orgtwister Does the dies have to be machined by a tool maker to do the imprint. Say i forged a spear exactly how i wanted it , then cooled that down then heated up to blocks of steel and then put my forged spear in between the two heated blocks then pressed or hammer them down, would that work?
then harden then put in a rod then whammo out comes a spear. is it that simple? the reason being i like forging things and some of my customers just want things a bit cheaper to match this fellow called ironman who produces pressed leaves in our town. I would love to experiment on some dies and I am in the middle of making a ron kinyon air hammer then i was going to look at after christmas in making a press. i would like to press or hammer which ever way that they do it some nice patterns on pickets and spear tops and such.

dablacksmith i'm not quite sure what you are trying to tell me. I hope good luck doesn't mean good bye, because i need a bit more information. are you saying that you know a fellow who made some dies and he made you some and you are going to get bask with me with his details or how he did it.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Dies can be simple, or very detailed, how much do you want to spend?

Dies have to match top, and bottom, be heat treated correctly, and be made from the correct type of steel, all of this costs. If it was easy , tool and die makers wouldn't be making the money that they do. Although a good tool maker can make it look easy to do. What this all boils down to is this. You can make your own dies, and they may do what you want. If they don't it will cost a fair amount to have them made. There are folks selling dies, so that would probably be the way to go, unless they do not make what you are looking for.

[orgtwister]

i don't think your idea of forgeing a die around your proto type would work asmost dies i see and made are bigger than what you end product is so forgeing a round them i think would just transfer heat to to your proto type and deform it the dies that i made were made out of 2x3 steel blocks i used a 4 inch grinder a die grinder (with good us made cutters and stones no china)and a welder to give you some idea of dies if you check hofi's blue prints he made a die for forgeing balls on shaft for a gate or something like that out steel real simple (to me anyway)heres the blue print number BP1042 Forging 1-1/4 inch ball

Edited November 21, 2009 by orgtwister

[pkrankow]

There is a cool video of a fella who uses laser cut blanks to make leaves using a swage die and a veining die. Here's the thread, it's about half way down the page
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f92/anyone-made-use-leaf-swage-14762/

and here are most of what you asked for
Blacksmiths Depot

[arftist]

A simple die set from a tool and diemaker runs 10K and up.

You can make dies, you are a blacksmith. Plan on much trial and error. As you err you will learn what doesn't work.

Start with mild steel, if something works you can replicate it in tool steel later.

Many items must be formed progressively, where one die does part of the work, and another continues the process. Some simple shapes can be completed in one operation.

Research could cut down the amount of trial and error. There are a lot of books on diemaking, and there are a great many videos on the web about hot die-forging.

It would be much easier to make a die to make a part if one already knew how to handforge said part.

A power hammer is more versatile than a run of the mill press, a forging press is large, heavy, expensive, justified only by a large demand of work. I am not saying forging presses are not useful, just that for most blacksmiths, the acquisition of a powerhammer would greatly precede that of a forging press.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Arftist pretty well nailed it. You seem to have a grasp of the process, why don't you just go try it? Learn from the experience and try again. As Arftist said you can experiment with mild steel dies. Do-Learn-Do better, it's an endless loop, or spiral, that teaches you what you want to know.

[Michael T]

thanks heaps fellows, i really mean it sometimes it is easier to get the ball running here first before diving in. I'd like to think that I could have a go and learn from trial and error with the research. Personally I would also like to forge everything but in a working world sometimes we have to stamp a few things aswell. If I can't get the dies right I will just have to throw money at it . Money I don't have but sometimes you just got to bite the bullet. I am going to see if I can fin some of the hot die forging videos on the web. thanks fellows.

[forgemaster]

I have attached photos of stamping dies that we have made by the method of make a dummy, get the dies hot and wack them together, basically. Its a little more involved than that, these dies have had some machining done to them yes, but for the majority it was using a dummy and forging the blocks together, boxing them up, reheating, and a final resinking.
If anyone wants to know more I'll go into detail.

Phil

[arftist]

We always want to know more, thats why we are here. Details please, thankyou.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Just a note: We usually called a tool that you could rotate the part in a "swage" and one that stamps the part like this a "snap" or snap die. Usually pre-form the part in a swage then finish it in a snap. Work real hard at getting a pre-form that doesn't make much flash. Nice stuff Phil. I pretty much machine everything now, but I have CNC and no big hammer.

[Timothy Miller]

I have made spear points in a die. I use two dies. One to point and another to form a spear. takes about 45 seconds per piece. This is competitive with cast iron spears.

[forgemaster]

I'll still post some more details on die making when I get the chance, just we've been a little busy lately, belting hot steel seems more profitable than sitting on a computer in a forum.
Phil