cold forging silver knife

[newbladesmith]

ok. so my older brother wants me to cold forge a silver knife for him. if he wanted it done out of a straight bar of silver it wouldn't be that much of a problem, but he want's me to "work it with a hammer then acid etch it to smooth it out" he want's me to braid it then do this. then he want's me to blacken it to harden it. i was woundering what can be done here. any advice would be nice. from what he's saying he wants me to pattern weld it in the norse style.

Edited October 11, 2009 by mod07

[Rich Hale]

Ask him to do the first one so you can learn!!!

[newbladesmith]

he dosn't know how or he would do it himself. He dose leather work. i do metal work. so he want's me to do something that he's read about. it would be a religious blade for him.

[David Einhorn]

Sorry, but what you described does not make sense to me. It sounds like something that is either the result of confusion or fantasy.

Suggesting that he make one and show you, is another way of politely saying that the process described is not possible.

[pkrankow]

here is a thread about pattern welding in soft metals.
http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f48/mokume-gane-14720/
Silver, the precious metal, hardens by working, and heat only softens it. It turns out steel is the exception to how metal work with respect to heat treatment. The final blade will be an expensive piece of jewelry.
Phil

[newbladesmith]

well he only want's it for religious ritual use anyway so being jewlery is not to bad a thing.

[David Einhorn]

It might make life easier for you if you researched knives being made for his intended use:
Wiccan and Pagan athames, witch blades, knives and daggers.
Wicca Supplies, Pagan Jewelry - Ladyhawk's Treasures Wicca, Pagan, Gothic, Witchcraft, New Age Supplies Shop
Assorted Sword Witch Witchcraft Wicca Wiccan Ritual Blades. Pagan and Wiccan Athames and ritual knives for worship and magick ceremonies.
Wicca Athames Ritual Knives 1

Edited October 11, 2009 by UnicornForge

[tyrsson40]

I take people who tell me things at face value those that talked to me about this proved false anyone have a pattern for a blackened silver dagger? secondly i should have asked my brother and you all first doh

[Bentiron1946]

If you want to make silver black use liver of sulfur. You can buy mokume gane at Reactive Metals Studio, Inc. Home Page and save your self the hassle of making it yourself.

[ThomasPowers]

Silver doesn't pattern weld---you have to mix it with other metals to get a pattern---(mokume)

Acid etching does not smooth things out, makes the surface worse!

Blackening does not harden silver.

[David Einhorn]

Now that several smiths have stated unequivocally that what tyrsson40 wants done, pattern welding silver, smoothing with acid, and hardening by blackening, is not possible except perhaps in Harry Potter type books, we will have to see if he still disbelieves what we have said. :D

Edited October 12, 2009 by UnicornForge

[rock-n-time]

It just ain't gona happen dude.True

[Talon Tex Overland]

i understand what your brothers wanting, but i dont think that it is at all possible... just out of curiosity, what path does your brother follow? and do you think we could get a link to where he read about it??

Edited October 22, 2009 by TexasIronworker

[ThomasPowers]

Now silver bladed knives were fairly common 150 years ago---for cutting fruit the acids of which would discolour a plain carbon steel blade. You can even find pocket knives that had one of the blades silver for this reason.

Some examples can be seen at Antique Silver Fruit Knives - Daniel Bexfield Antiques

[Talon Tex Overland]

okay just had a thought.... I can see in my head a perfect idea of what hes wanting, and what it would look like if someone managed to make it and ii got to thinking; what about instead of pure silver, u use an aluminum-silver alloy. the ones in the link sounds perfect for what your looking for and it even has a list of wat aluminum:silver ratio produce what results. couldn't you take a few rolls of each alloy and braid/pattern weld them together??? if you had different silver alloys couldnt u pattern weld them like you do different steel alloys


Silver Alloys

Edited October 23, 2009 by TexasIronworker

[David Einhorn]

...what about instead of pure silver, u use an aluminum-silver alloy........

My humble understanding is that Wiccans planning on using knives to "cast spells" would much prefer pure silver. So I think that he has his heart set on "pattern welded pure silver".

[Fe-Wood]

could it be he was looking for acid etching that gave the look of patturn welding:confused:

[David Einhorn]

could it be he was looking for acid etching that gave the look of patturn welding:confused:

Anything is possible. I have made a humble observation about life that some people, especially the young, get odd ideas in their head and then insist that their notion is correct. For those folks it is often a matter of their learning the hard way.

I often tell folks that there are two ways to learn. They can either learn from their own mistakes, or they can learn from the mistakes others have made. It is a lot less painful and less expensive to learn from the mistakes of others. This concept is also expressed in the old saying, "both individuals and governments who don't learn from history are destined to relive it". I would love to see that saying printed on our currency. :D Edited October 24, 2009 by UnicornForge
grammer

[Fe-Wood]

I also beleive that is a "loose" translation for the deffinition of insanity. Expecting a different result from the same input over and over again! " I keep doing the same thing and it comes out wrong every time!!!!!" We're supposed to be the smart monkey's as a friend used to say:rolleyes:

[nonjic]

make him one out of silver steel (W1), looks really nice welded up with wrought iron ;)

[Talon Tex Overland]

from wat i understand about wiccan beliefs (not much), silver is a lunar metal and should be worked under the light of a full moon... go with the 50/50 aluminum/silver alloy, its as hard as bronze and has atleast some silver in it... outa personal curiosity does he want an athame or a boline or what kind of knife.

[ThomasPowers]

You can solidstate weld silver. You won't get any deffinition from it unless you do use other metals. I would suggest explosively weld it myself.

May I commend to your attention "Solid State Welding of Metals", Tylecote, to learn way more than you ever wanted to know about the subject.

As for explosive welding they do that on a regular basis behind the local mountain here at NM Tech.

As for learning I've always like : "There are those who can learn by reading about someone doing it and those who can learn by watching someone do it but there are always those who have to pee on the electric fence themselves..."

Edited October 26, 2009 by ThomasPowers

[thingmaker3]

"Religious blade" in no way implies "Wiccan blade." I've only been Wiccan for twenty years or so, but I've never heard of a requirement for a silver blade. Sounds more like a Druid's sickle to me...

[newbladesmith]

he is asatru. he wants it for general religious purposes. but he has already realized from reading this thread that what he wanted wasn't possible and he has stated this fact. we have already decided that i am going to cold forge a general religious blade for him from a solid piece of silver.