fire and forge help

[kunkle]

Hello,

I tried using my "forge" today for the second today. I really don't know much about blacksmithing, just what I read from a popular mechanics magazine and from this site for the past couple of months.

It took me an 1hr. to light penn coal blacksmith coal and then it seemed to burn real fast. I used about 4 lbs of coal in 20 min. without getting piece of 1/2 rebar glowing red. Is this normal? My first attempt was with hard coal used to run a steam engine. It took over an hour to light the hard coal and then it only smoldered, so I broke down and bought the penn coal.

I lined the forge with a layer of coal, built a wood fire and then turned on a hair dryer for a blower and fed in more coal. Is there a better way? I could not get the hard coal lit with an oxy-actelyene set up.

The forge I am using is a brake rotor set into a pizza pan on an old aquarium stand, looks like a 55 forge.

So, my questions are how do you light coal? How much coal do you use at a time? How do you pack coal to form a bee hive? How can you tell if you have enough or too little air being fed to the fire?

Also, are there any smiths near Wilmington, Delaware that would mentor me.

Thanks,

Karl

[Drako11]

To light my coal I use a bit of charcoal.

I make a little pile of charcoal over the air source, soak it in some starting fluid, let it soak in good for a few minutes, then light it. I let the charcoal burn for a few minutes until I can see some embers forming, then I put on a little air. I start adding small bits of coal, usually what is left over from my last forging session, around the outside of the charcoal making a sort of volcano which cuts down on smoke and such, once I have a volcano built I add more air, pretty soon it is roaring.

My friend does about the same thing except he uses bits of pine woods and soaks it in diesel. I think part of your problem is putting the lighting source, the wood, sandwiched in coal. You want it right next to you air source so it can get real hot and light the coal. Try putting your wood in first, let it burn some, give it light air, add your coal, then give it a good bit of air. Should work!

In a whole day of forging I will go through about a 5 gallon bucket of coal, and I use a good bit of air. I have used a hairdryer as my air source before, and for me it just wasn't enough air at all took forever to light and couldn't heat anything up fast enough. It created a really small hot spot that was difficult to find and if my stock wasn't right in the hot spot it wouldn't heat up. I normally use a small shop vac on reverse as my blower.

I am not certain how to form a bee hive, but I think it involves starting some dry coal, then adding a sort of paste made from fine coal and water on the outside and it makes a sort of shell then you can scoop some of the coal from the middle of the pile. Don't take my word for it though! Well that's about all the info I have, good luck!

[Rob Browne]

To start my coal forge I simply build a SMALL wood fire using a sheet of newspaper and a handfull of twigs. As soon as that is going it push the left over charcoal/coke form the last forging in from the sides making sure I leave the top open for ventillation. I then slowly start cranking to add a little air. It soon catches and I push more wet coal in from the sides. Within a few minutes I have a fire the size of a grapefruit going with green coal coking on the sides (use some water to stop the fire spreading too fast and to help coking). It doesn't take much air to get going.

I NEVER use any accellarants as I think they are asking for trouble.

As for the bee hive fire, I would not worry too much in the beginning. Just get the fire started and have green coal coking on the sides. When you get that under your belt then you can worry about the different fire configurations used and decide what is most useful to you.

Cheers

[Glenn]

The following Blueprints address the subject of building a fire.

BP0036 Fire and Smoke 01 Forge Glenn Conner
BP0037 Fire and Smoke 02 Forge Jim Wilson
BP0042 Fire and Smoke 03 Forge Jim Gerlinsky
BP0045 Fire and Smoke 04 Forge Jerry Carroll
BP0046 Fire and Smoke 05 Forge Jr Strasil
BP0048 Fire and Smoke 06 Forge Steve O'Grady
BP0137 Fire Starter Forge Joshua Langfitt

IForgeIron.com > metalworking lessons > LB0010 Building a Fire

Build a fire a boy scout would be proud of using sticks, pine cones, or small pieced of wood. Then add coal keeping a hole in the top of the coal for the smoke and fire to exit like a volcano. Keep the air going until you have a fire ball in the center and coal on top. Punch the coal down to collapse any hollow void. Some coal (fuels) require constant air to stay burning, others just a bit. Both should come alive again when strong air is sent into the fire.

Add air to control the amount of heat you need from the fire. Keep fuel available and covering the fire to replenish the fuel used. Many fires are 6 inches deep or more, it all depends on your forge, your fuel, and your set up.

The use of any flammable liquid to build a fire in a forge is a bad idea.

[CurlyGeorge]

Hi Karl. First, welcome to IFI. This is a GREAT site to get info. First, I do about the same as Draco11, for here in my shop or at a demo. I use some charcoal, only I soak mine with a little lamp oil. Don't overdo it with the lamp oil. It doesn't take much. As soon as the charcoal starts burning good, start dragging in coke, if you have any made up, or green coal. Keep air to it and the coal will start to burn and smoke like crazy. After you get it burning, start sprinkling water on the green coal and it will help cut SOME of the smoke. If I'm starting with green coal, I get it burning good and break the crust to get a flame. That will cut a lot of the smoke.
After you have coked some coal and have a supply burning, pile fresh coal on top, dampen it and tamp it down. As the coke burns from the inside of the fire, you will end up with your "beehive". Good luck. :)

[TechnicusJoe]

G'day kunkle, if you need help with lighting the forge, my video could help you.

YouTube - Lighting and using the forge.

hope this will help you;)

[kunkle]

Thanks everyone,

This has been informative. I guess I am not using enough coal and not enough air. I need to find a cheaper coal supplier and make a better pan for around the fire pot.

Has anyone used the coal from Summit Tech, Inc., in New Jersey?

Thank you for your help.
Karl

[piglet_74]

Karl, I'm in Elkton, MD. I get my coal from the guild I joined out in Westminster, MD. It's the Blacksmith Guild of Central Maryland. Great bunch of folks. They sell very good coal in 50lb bags for around $15 for non members and less for members. I would be happy to get together sometime and help you get going. Shoot me a PM. Right now we're in our reactor refueling outage at work but it's just about over. Then I'll have a little more free time. Let me know. Rob.

[David Einhorn]

kunkle, I love the hat, but does that mean that you are going bald.

Seriously, you are real close to a bunch of blacksmithing guilds, and lots of smiths. So you have lots of folks that can show you fire management. I highly recommend taking an introductory blacksmithing course with the BGCM (click here for link to BGCM Classes) in Westminister MD as that will answer a lot of questions.

The closest guild/club to you is the Mid-Atlantic Smiths Association

[Cross Pein]

Right now we're in our reactor refueling outage at work but it's just about over.

Piglet, where do you work? I'm in the industry. I work for a fire protection company in Massachusetts. We work at many sites.

Bill

[piglet_74]

Peach Bottom APS. We're in P3R17. We're doing a 500kv Transformer replacement, Generator stator rewind, and the usual 1/3 core refuel. We're a BWR. Do you ever make it down this far?

[Cross Pein]

Piglet,

Peach Bottom is one of our clients, but I have never been on-site there. I have been to Pilgrim, Vermont Yankee, Millstone, Cooper, DC Cook, and I worked for 10 months at Indian Point. Peach Bottom and Limerick still run our old cable and raceway software.

What do you do there?

[Old South Creations]

If you have access to pine cones, they make a good starter also. I use 2 newspaper "balls" & 2 pine cones. I loosely pile coal around them and once the newspaper & pine cones are burning I start adding small pieces of coal to the fire until it's burning like it should be. Worlks every time...well, most every time :)

[thecelticforge]

I have found a wonderful cheater for lighting fires recently. I used to use fatwood/lightered (heartwood from certain pines) in my wood burning stove. But this was causing creosote in my stove pipe. I just found these Diamond Strike a Fire matches, 48 in a box. They are huge fat matches that burn for twelve minutes. I tried one yesterday, just to see how it would work. It worked very well. I will take them to craft fairs from now on, because the only time I have trouble starting a fire wis when people are watching.

[matt87]

I've lit charcoal and coke fires with several different methods and techniques and IMO nothing beats a decent wood fire to start with. I have been known to use all sorts of things to start the fire, even 3-in-1 oil soaked into cotton wool (works but smokey). Now I avoid accelerants -- I've never had an accident but the risk is there and frankly I can light a fire without them just fine. My favourite way (probably make our Scandinvian smiths happy) is birch bark and split, dry pine. I'm very careful with stacking the fire, adding fuel and air as needed (easy to get carried away and choke or blow out the fire) and can usually get a forging fire ready in under 15 minutes with one match (I forge outdoors in my native, damp habitat). I find that with (industrially burned) coke it's important to have a good bed of (wood) coals roaring before raking the coke into the edges of the fire gradually (it's a bit of a bugger to light and comes sopping wet). A handful of lump charcoal helps it get going.

[kashmire]

also keep in mind that rebar is rough to heat. depending on the quality of rebar your playing with, your going to need a serios fire going to heat it to dark orange or better. i run propane and i spend almost twice the time heating rebar as i do almost any other stock.

[matt87]

also keep in mind that rebar is rough to heat. depending on the quality of rebar your playing with, your going to need a serios fire going to heat it to dark orange or better. i run propane and i spend almost twice the time heating rebar as i do almost any other stock.

Eh? Are you saying that, if you were to put a piece of rebar into your forge next to a similar sized piece of A36 or 1045 or any other steel, the rebar would be considerably colder than the other piece?

[Larzz]

Of course that's what he meant. Aren't you aware of the magic properties of REBAR the magic mystery metal? It takes longer to heat and is quicker to cool then other metals.
It can be harder then diamonds or softer then SPAM, sometimes at the same time. It seldom melts but burns brighter then the sun, with sparkels! :>

[kashmire]

no, i am stating that in my experience with rebar (god knows what type/quality) i've found just because its looks hot doesn't mean i can take a 3# hammer to it and expect it to move the way the mild steel of the same girth i just got done working with did. even hot the rebar seems to fight back and retain shape. there for it would require longer heats to work easily. and as for your tool steel numbers they may as well be Japanese. because i work in scrap. i don't know the numbers, i know that working 1/2in rebar requires a longer heat in my propane forge than most of the random 1/2in scrap i pick up does to work. who knows maybe the 1/2 inch rebar i got is magical, i know at a dark orange i may as well be hitting my anvil instead... i may make more progress! and if it is magical what do you think? +1 or +3 rebar of zombie slaying?

Edited October 3, 2009 by kashmire

[matt87]

no, i am stating that in my experience with rebar (god knows what type/quality) i've found just because its looks hot doesn't mean i can take a 3# hammer to it and expect it to move the way the mild steel of the same girth i just got done working with did. even hot the rebar seems to fight back and retain shape. there for it would require longer heats to work easily. and as for your tool steel numbers they may as well be Japanese. because i work in scrap. i don't know the numbers, i know that working 1/2in rebar requires a longer heat in my propane forge than most of the random 1/2in scrap i pick up does to work. who knows maybe the 1/2 inch rebar i got is magical, i know at a dark orange i may as well be hitting my anvil instead... i may make more progress! and if it is magical what do you think? +1 or +3 rebar of zombie slaying?

Okay I get you now. The property you're describing is commonly known as 'hot hardness' and is common in steels with significant amounts of carbon and other alloying elements. As is commonly said, lower-spec, garden-variety rebar is typically made to a performance (rather than material) spec from remelted scrap and so often contains a lot of whatever 'stuff' happened to be in the scrap hopper. It can be a useful property if it's worth the time/embuggerance factor to work with 'found' steels rather than 'known' ones.