Black_Flame Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 A few days ago I started thinking in theory about some type of new sword construction. It would consist of 3 types of steel; 1. a slightly soft, flexible inner core. (1075 possibly?) 2. a harder slightly flexible skin with 2 rows of round holes cut out slightly spaced out (I'd like to try using saw blade material or spring steel) 3. Round cut circles of hard, dense high CC alloy steel slightly smaller than the diameter of the holes previously cut out. (you guys probably know your metals better than I do and would know what to use or what not to use) Picturing it would be like this allong the edge of the steel Side View: Soft Core (metal # 1): ___________________________ ___________________________ Skin (Metal # 2 & 3): ___________________________ )_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_( )_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_( ___ where the )_( is metal # 2 and (_) is metal # 3 The skin of the metal would first be somehow attatched to the soft core to create a "T" where the top of the T is the skin and the middle is the softer core. Then the skin would be bent over so it would cover the sides of the core and then Metal # 3 somehow fixed into it's position. Then the metal could be forged and possibly folded evenly 2 times or more (once allong the center line of the blade and once front to back) so that you would have a thick layer of this skin in the middle of the blade as well as half of that thickness covering the outside. The reason why I think this would work is because the more flexible saw blade material would be able to flex in some segments relieving the stress off of the more dense, tough metal #2 while metal # 2 would hold its position and would not break because it is divided into different segments. And while that is going on metal #1 would possibly allow some kind of (having difficulty explaining this lol) transition between those 2 metals to further reduce the stress on the blade. also the blade would be folded in such a way so that the edge of the blade would be allong the diameter of metal # 3 making it able to hold an edge fairly well. so whats everyones opinion on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 sorry mate, but dont know where to start with whats wrong with your idea! (my opinion is half a page of rubbish) In a nutshell when you forge weld youll get carbon migration, so you high and low carbon areas basically end up medium carbon. It is difficult to forge weld steels with very different alloying elements, especially over long plains like a sword (good chance of tearing itself to bits at any point in its thermal cycle) You cant get optimum heat treat for more than one kind of steel. Infact you will end up with a cr&p heat treat for the whole lot You need to try working some hot metal before you 'design' the ultimate edged tool! and have a look at how good modern steels properly heat treated are, developed by international corporations with millions of $ of R&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 There are 3 layer swords out there, with a high carbon core and forge welded low carbon sides. After stock removal, and heat treat you get a very hard cutting edge and a tough body. This works since there is no folding so carbon migration is limited. If you were doing different alloy layers for color, you might make something visually interesting after stock removal and etch. Not sure how it would work out though, I understand forge welding a billet is difficult enough using even sized, regular shaped stock. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) Black I can almost see the wheels in your mind churning. So many ideas to develop and see through to samples. Keep that going. But as you do develop some forgeing skills as you go so in a few years you can give some of them a try. Get some forging books. Not knife or sord ones yet. Learn to use a hammer, forge and anvil to move metal. Without that basic skill you will be at our mercy to critique your thoughts as unworkable even though I have not tried wot you just described. When You get a couple of years of good steady right on the money forging behind you get some knife books and see about carbon migration and heat treat mentioned above and it may all make a little bit better sense to you. And keep the mind working! Edited September 14, 2009 by Rich Hale ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 If your alloys have very different properties they will often tend to shear when trying to forge them after welding them together. Also heat treat becomes more of a guess as what is just right for one alloy may not be good at all for another. BTW have you lookd at what's being done with Mosaic Damascus? Or the Swedish HIP powder damascus? Or have you looked into Wootz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted T Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Black Flame Welcome to I Forge Iron!! You ask for opinions! I totally support and agree with what Rich Hale as said in his post! In no way would I want to discourage your creative intentions. In fact my wish for you is just the opposite; I would like to see you succeed. I would hope that you will pursue making swords or what ever you choose. But a certain level, reality has to step in so you can use your creative abilities and time more effectively. I would suggest that you have possibly underestimated the creativeness of hundreds if not thousands of people who make swords, knives, and who are also educated in the field of metallurgy. I would hope that you would consider that there is an established field of knowledge that has been already been honed by many intelligent and educated people in the field of metallurgy. It is not a simple field of study where just plain old common sense will pull you through. It is a technology (although it is always developing) that for the most part has been foundationally established with very few variances for basic adjustment. A person cannot just set that technology aside and expect to be successful. There is also a price each person must pay when they enter a skilled craft such as blacksmithing, knife, or sword making. It should be up to the individual to give the time and effort to do their homework and study at least the basics of metallurgy and elevate their blacksmithing skills to a level equal to and with-in the boundaries of their questions and or suggestions. That way it becomes an informative discussion. There is a saying that goes as follows: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Flame Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Yeah perhaps I should have bought a book and read a few things about forging before asking those questions. I have read a bit on pattern welding damascus Sweedish Damascus and wootz but I do not underestimate any artist/metallurgist/blacksmith/swordsmith or anyone for that matter. Actually, anyone who has the knowledge/skills/creativity and tools to work with steel I am pretty much inspired by...I try reasearching and reading what people write about Damascus/wootz or any type of steel ...from the making of it right to the characteristics of the steel and what its applications are. Thats saying a lot for me because I hardly ever read about anything else. The only thing that is frustrating is that it is hard to find a teacher or a course that will teach you about blacksmithing and metallurgy. To me it almost seems like blacksmithing/forging is a self taught profession now-days. I used to be in tool and die (I learned quite a bit about working with metal there) and I did quite well for a while... got a fairly high GPA without trying too hard. Then I kinda got myself involved in something else (this ex g.f) and screwed up the 2nd semester thinking I could finish 2 projects in less than 8 hours on the last day but the class ended up having a half day instead of a full day and oh man I was pissed. Anways...I allready well understand that in order for me to even pick up on smithing (practically) I would have to essentially own my own place (over $100,000). After that comes making/buying the forge and all the tools as well as the steel from the suppliers (easily atleast $10,000). Again it would be much simpler to either be in a class where you learn from watching a teacher or learn from a friend/relative/co-worker who allready does blacksmithing/forging/metalworking either as a profession or as a hobby. Unfortionately I dont know any of those people. lol However...reading those books seems to be the best start on understanding forging and metallurgy. I only hope that I run into some blacksmith somewhere or that I have a house by the time I finish reading those books. lol On a more positive note...( i think I said this once allready) not owning a forge doesnt stop me from making swords or stop my crativity. I have started to buy manufactured sheets of various steels and am starting to turn those flat sheets into blades. Allthough relative to everyone elses level here its probably more like cutting out a drawing I made on a piece of paper and sticking a popsicle stick on the end of it for a guard and a handle. It's still a pretty xxxx good looking piece of unfinished paper-popsicle stick though! lol But before I leave I just wanted to reply to a few comments:You need to try working some hot metal before you 'design' the ultimate edged tool! and have a look at how good modern steels properly heat treated are, developed by international corporations with millions of $ of R&D. Yes...BUT...there is also another nutshell when it comes to those International multi-billionaire corporations; Allthough they have spent maybe even billions of $ on R&D the sad truth is that most international metal manufacturing corporations (let alone any company) are more interested in selling thier product at a reasonable price for their consumer rather than quality first. The reason why is because the people who buy that steel arent going to buy the most expensive indestructible steel on the market...they just want something thats cheap, effective and up to their standards that fits the project. If someone made a metal that was super light, flexible, tough and withstood the highest temperatures and pressures (just say in theory) no one would want it because the cost would be far too great for even the military to find a practical use for it. The other reason being...if they made a metal so high in quality no one would ever need replacement parts and that hurts the buisness of the steel manufacturers. As a result of this most of those corporations only do R&D on metals that could balance their consumers budget and help make a profit for both organizations. So in my opinion it will probably allways be up to the bladesmith to discover (or possibly rediscover) the ultimate metal alloy to create the ultimate blade and not those corporations. I appreciate the Input though.There are 3 layer swords out there, with a high carbon core and forge welded low carbon sides. After stock removal, and heat treat you get a very hard cutting edge and a tough body. This works since there is no folding so carbon migration is limited. Sounds interesting...another thing I am going to have to look up and read about. Get some forging books. Not knife or sord ones yet. Learn to use a hammer, forge and anvil to move metal. Without that basic skill you will be at our mercy to critique your thoughts as unworkable even though I have not tried wot you just described. When You get a couple of years of good steady right on the money forging behind you get some knife books and see about carbon migration and heat treat mentioned above and it may all make a little bit better sense to you. And keep the mind working! yeah I hate feeling like the village idiot here lol I know failures are sometimes more important than the success...but I really need to learn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted T Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Black Flame, I like your spirited and respectful attitude. I wish I only had a 10th of your energy. I know you are in a hurry to get going at sword making, which I believe to be only normal and that it just shows that you have a lot of energy and interest. You mention something that alarmed me. You are not a village idiot by a long way. You are just someone who wants to get some training and hitting the ground making swords. We just want to encourage you to go about it in a way that will be safe, long lasting and effective! You mentioned that it is hard to find someone to help you get started. I see you are from Ottawa, On. Canada. So here is a blacksmith group that may help you obtain the training that you desire. I would bet there is a sword maker in their group Ontario Artist Blacksmith Association - (OABA) I wish you lived close to me, I would be glad to help you as I know many other smiths found here would do. Please stick around and take advantage of the training features found here at I Forge Iron. There is some good and information to be found on this site that will help you get a good start. In the mean time, please take the time to become familiar with the I Forge Iron site!For example, here is how to find a Blueprint about metallurgy. Go to the home page. Then click on Blueprints. Type in the word “Metallurgy” Then you will find BP0078 The Metallurgy of Heat Treating: Again, please stick around and you will be surprised how much help you will receive, but you need to take the time and effort to do some reading also! I wish you the very best! Ted Throckmorton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Oh man...why does it seem that just about everyone wants to bypass learning the basics and jump right in head first into making swords?? Man alive...learn what to do and how to do it before you start making something that complicated.. For the record.. a forge is nothing more than a heat source..which can be as simple as a hole in the ground, some hard wood charcoal and an old iron pipe hooked up to a hair dryer for an air source..and anvil is nothing more than a smooth piece of steel/iron and the rest is about as simple... You can get started for well under $40.00 US if you can do a bit of scrounging around... I have been doing this stuff for a little while now and it doesn't take much to get up and running...I don't think I have $10,000.00 in my shop total...most of the stuff I needed I made..and I am pretty good at scrounging JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 BlackFlame, I have no idea if David is close to you but here is a link to Blacksmith courses in Ontario.Ontario Blacksmith Classes, Gas Forge Course, Ontario Blacksmith Courses|Blacksmithing Classes | Blacksmith Lessons | Blacksmith School Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Stock removal in wood and rolled metal is a good place to start for knives and swords. You are learning basics that you will need later. With wood you can make several designs for a few dollars and if you like them, paint and keep. If you don't like, throw into the stove/fireplace and they are still useful! I have never made a knife out of metal, but have made a couple nice costume pieces out of wood. Wood examples are often made before custom work in metal is done. I am learning too and just starting in metalworking as a hobby. I have been through college and know from experience that if you don't buckle down and get your work done there will be no jobs for you on graduation. Your family, friends, and GF needs to understand that your job as a student is your studies. I'm less than US$300 into setting up my shop, and I'm not so good at scrounging (scrapyards do not sell to the public here). I spend less than $50 per month on it and have been setting it up for most of a year. I have all the parts for my forge either built, installed, or on order (arriving this week). I located a usable flea market anvil for $50. If the scrap yards in your area sell to the public then you are in excellent shape for setting up an inexpensive shop. A nice piece of steel, especially at scrap prices, makes an excellent anvil, even if it is not hardened/hardenable. An anvil is just a block with a flat face. There are people here who are using rocks because of cost. Basic hammers can be had for less than us$20 at hardware/big box stores. They are not "the best" but they are good hammers. Adjust the handles to suit your hand and redress the head as needed. Work space is a funny thing. If you live in a dorm you might be stuck. There are many knifemakers who started using the kitchen stove as a heat source. You can talk to family and friends who own some property and see about setting up in the back yard and working once a week, especially if they live in the "country". Since you are studying to be a machinist, this is a hobby and you will not be working at it every day. There is a blueprint here that has a list of free online books (Maybe Glenn will post the link, as I can't seem to find it again). Read up on all aspects of blacksmithing, even though you are into bladesmithing. Get metal hot and make something. Have an idea of where you want to go for your session. Most important: Have fun & be safe. Phil here is one list of books for freeCraft publications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 After having a fellow explain that he couldn't get started smithing because he didn't have the couple of thousand dollars for a set up I went out and assembled a beginner's set up for about US$25: forge anvil, blower, basic tools. $5 for a bag of charcoal and it could be forging! Doing will really make the lessons from the books sink in. I usually let a student burn up a piece after warning them several times (we start with an oversized piece so they can recover) I have them quench high carbon steel in plain water and see how brittle it is; etc. And of course there are always the American Bladesmith Society school with regular classes! You won't start any younger; so start attending meetings and doing rather than dreaming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 The materials companies make all kinds of metals that have just unbelievable qualities, they can be a bit $ but they are out there, to buy, by anyone. They just arent 'discussed' on metalworking forums very often! I once stood next to a shearing machine, cutting chunks off a 10" sq bar (cold), one bite every 5 seconds. those blades were good, and lasted for weeks before replacement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Flame Posted September 16, 2009 Author Share Posted September 16, 2009 Thanks for helping me get started on this guys...I really appreciate the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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