Square wave feature on TIG's

[Pinjas]

Hello,

I have read a fair number of posts on this forum and there seems to be more than a few individuals who have a large amount of TIG/welding knowledge. It seems there is a tremendous price difference between TIG's that have square wave and those that don't. At least the way I seem to understand it. It sounds like square wave is just an evolution of the AC idea. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is this feature essential and amazing for welding? I am looking to welding aluminum at the moment. I am trying to find a sort of list of TIG's that have square wave, on my own research I have found that the lincoln square wave has it and the esab 252 and 352 have it. Miller seems to use something different or at least calls it something different.

I am in need of some knowledge. Someone has offered me a Miller 330 a/bp, it is old and extremely heavy, it doesn't have anything 'advanced' outside of AC. This TIG is 900 dollars, which is within my 1,500 or so price limit. Should I get this TIG? Or should I try and find something within my price limit that will have square wave or maybe something better than the miller 330?

Thanks a bunch!

[unkle spike]

Miller and Hobart both have forums, perhaps you would be better to ask there?

[Dragons lair]

Pinjas, I have a 330/ABP and love it. Learned on a similar Airco welding aircraft turbines
Over 40 yrs ago. Opened my shop 7yrs ago with a 250 dialarc.Shopped for many yrs till I found a 330 with the 4 ranges. Would have to have at least a foot pedal with it for that price. Water cooler and torch would be a plus. At about 900lbs good casters are a must.
Built like a tank. Square waves are nice but not needed.Spent 20yrs welding aluminum
furniature piece work with a OLD lincoln tombstone with addon hi freq. Will take an old copperwound any day.
Ken

[Charlotte]

Pardon my ignorant intrusion but, am I mistaken in my impression that square wave design generates a more stable arc?

[RcRacer]

The most important feature of a square wave machine for aluminum is the control of not only the frequency but the period of pos and neg pulses. The frequency controls the shape of the arc making the "cone" sharper and more focused at higher frequency. The period will set the ratio between cleaning ( current traveling towards the tungsten ) and heating for aluminum. With the new inverter ( switching power supply / small transformer ) machines, the arc is more stable and aluminum can / should be welded with a sharpened tungsten because of the more stable arc.

[Pinjas]

I have been wondering about sharpening electrodes, it seemed like something important whenever mentioned. Dynaflux Quality Welding Products this looks like a good idea, do you agree? Thanks for the explanation for square wave.

The miller 300 a/bp seems to come with everything I would need, although I don't know if it has casters. I think I might go take a look at it this weekend. Do you think I should just get that TIG or try and get something for a similar price that has square wave?

[RcRacer]

The Miller machine is a great machine and will do more than what you need but .... it's BIG and so is it's power requirements. I believe it needs a 100amp circuit. So if you do decide on that machine, just make sure that your shop can satisfy the power requirements and support the weight ( over 850 lbs I believe ).
I have a Thermal Dynamics 185tsw. It is great and has all of the programmable flexibilty I need but for aluminum or anything else, I am limited by it's output. So if you are going to be doing aluminum over 3/16", you'll need the amperage and finding a square wave machine with that output at your budget will not be easy.
As far as sharpening tungsten, learn to do it by hand with a grinding wheel. If you are a beginner weldor, you will be doing a lot of sharpening ;)

[arftist]

Pinjas, from what I understand, you will mostly be welding new metal. If that is true, you certainly don't need square wave. The old millers and lincolns are bulletproof. $900 isn't too bad these days if it includes a torch, flowmeter, footpetal or thumb controll and ground clamp. Try the machine before you buy it. By the way, old dirty aluminum can also be welded without squarewave, it is just more difficult.

[arftist]

I have a Thermal Dynamics 185tsw. It is great and has all of the programmable flexibilty I need but for aluminum or anything else, I am limited by it's output. So if you are going to be doing aluminum over 3/16"

I have welded 3/4'' plate to 3'' pipe and also 1 1/4'' anodized pipe to 1/2'' plate with my 185 GTS. You may need preheat, and also using helium instead of argon gives about a 20% increase in heat.

[Pinjas]

Pinjas, from what I understand, you will mostly be welding new metal. If that is true, you certainly don't need square wave. The old millers and lincolns are bulletproof. $900 isn't too bad these days if it includes a torch, flowmeter, footpetal or thumb controll and ground clamp. Try the machine before you buy it. By the way, old dirty aluminum can also be welded without squarewave, it is just more difficult.

Hah, hmm sounds good, you have responded to my questions more than once and you've always sounded spot on. It seems likely that I am going to purchase this miller 330. I better get an electrician too while I am at it. A few have mentioned that this TIG requires a dedicated 100 amp breaker to it, a real juice sucker.

[Dragons lair]

100 amps would be flat out( over 400 amps output on mine) I rarely switch above the second range (out of 4) When its off or welding 1/4 or less its probably pulling about 40 amps or less. Perhaps Steve will jump in with a better way of saying it.
Ken

[arftist]

My big old 300 amp miller with built in high frequency required 70 amps.

[arftist]

I have been wondering about sharpening electrodes, it seemed like something important whenever mentioned. Dynaflux Quality Welding Products this looks like a good idea, do you agree?

Tungsten for aluminum welding with a transformer welder is not sharpened. Instead, the end is formed into a ball, by switching the machine to DC+ and quickly striking an arc. Sharp tungsten is used for all other metals which are welded with DC-.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

You are correct on the power requirements. The amperage is directly related to the output, as well as incoming voltage. If the welder is set on half of the rated output it won't be pulling 100 amps, but more around 50. Likewise if it is wired to a 480 vs 220 outlet. The 480 will draw half the amps of a 220 circuit. Make sure of the input voltage, and phase. My Miller MP65E MIG/stick is a 3 phase unit. You also want to check your voltage at the house. My Linde UCC 305 TIG has taps that you switch for the incoming voltage IE; 208/220-240/440-480. A welder is nothing more than a fancy transformer.

One thing to consider is if you ever need to replace something. The newer welders with digital readouts,touchpads, etc are nice, but electronics can be expensive to replace as well as be more fragile than say a needle type voltmeter. Open the welder up and look at the insides, are they filthy, any appearance of overheating,, etc? Is the faceplate still readable, or has it been used so much that it is worn off? Try it out, listen for a loud fan that may be going out, coolant pump that is rough sounding, foot pedal works, try each heat range, and ramp the amps from top to bottom to check for a toasted spot in the rheostat. If the seller wants to rush you , or is hesitant to let you try it, be leery of why. If it cannot be run due to no power available ask to take it to a local welding supplier to try it out, or have them look at it.

All of my welders other than a Lincoln 110v SP100 were purchased used at auctions. With some careful purchases I got a great 350 amp TIG for $250, and a 650 amp MIG for $900. I added a new torch and foot pedal to the TIG for under $300. The MIG came with about $600 worth of silicon bronze , aluminum, and flux core wire to boot.I did a lot of aluminum as well as magnesium in my shop without a squarewave, and never had a problem. The worst items to weld were transmission, and VW cases due to being oil soaked castings. Anything heavy was done with the MIG,and spray arced - 5/8" aluminum plate welded to form a cap on 1" thick walled aluminum tube for labeling machine drums used in the wineries. Using 1/16 wire I had to be careful of blowing through the 5/8 plate with the finger sized beads that were being laid down.

[Pinjas]

You are correct on the power requirements. The amperage is directly related to the output, as well as incoming voltage. If the welder is set on half of the rated output it won't be pulling 100 amps, but more around 50. Likewise if it is wired to a 480 vs 220 outlet. The 480 will draw half the amps of a 220 circuit. Make sure of the input voltage, and phase. My Miller MP65E MIG/stick is a 3 phase unit. You also want to check your voltage at the house. My Linde UCC 305 TIG has taps that you switch for the incoming voltage IE; 208/220-240/440-480. A welder is nothing more than a fancy transformer.

One thing to consider is if you ever need to replace something. The newer welders with digital readouts,touchpads, etc are nice, but electronics can be expensive to replace as well as be more fragile than say a needle type voltmeter. Open the welder up and look at the insides, are they filthy, any appearance of overheating,, etc? Is the faceplate still readable, or has it been used so much that it is worn off? Try it out, listen for a loud fan that may be going out, coolant pump that is rough sounding, foot pedal works, try each heat range, and ramp the amps from top to bottom to check for a toasted spot in the rheostat. If the seller wants to rush you , or is hesitant to let you try it, be leery of why. If it cannot be run due to no power available ask to take it to a local welding supplier to try it out, or have them look at it.

All of my welders other than a Lincoln 110v SP100 were purchased used at auctions. With some careful purchases I got a great 350 amp TIG for $250, and a 650 amp MIG for $900. I added a new torch and foot pedal to the TIG for under $300. The MIG came with about $600 worth of silicon bronze , aluminum, and flux core wire to boot.I did a lot of aluminum as well as magnesium in my shop without a squarewave, and never had a problem. The worst items to weld were transmission, and VW cases due to being oil soaked castings. Anything heavy was done with the MIG,and spray arced - 5/8" aluminum plate welded to form a cap on 1" thick walled aluminum tube for labeling machine drums used in the wineries. Using 1/16 wire I had to be careful of blowing through the 5/8 plate with the finger sized beads that were being laid down.

Thank you for the response, I appreciate it. I have another question. How did you setup your wiring for your TIG's?

I have been doing some research and I am finding some frustrations. It seems I have a 100 amp main breaker, I can't run another 100 amp breaker from that, so I need to upgrade the main breaker to 200 amps, then run a line from a 100 amp breaker (the old one) to the plug. Does this all sound logical? Any input would be greatly appreciated. I don't really want to spend 3000 for this when it seems like pretty simple stuff.

[Dragons lair]

Pinjas, I will probably catch a lot of crap here but. My 330 is on a 100 amp line. it will run on a 50 amp line. If you run it too high it will trip the breaker. Rember in a one man shop you are only running one load at a time. Yes you have lights,radio on at the same time. But if grinding or whatever you are NOT drawing the welding load. Been doing it 40 yrs ain't figured out how to weld and grind at the same time.
Ken

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

If I remember right I wired it directly to the main breaker on the shop. Either that, or it was on a 50-60 amp breaker since I never maxed that welder out with home projects.

Same here, one man shop, and only able to do one thing at a time. The cord had a 50, or 60 amp dryer plug attached. Never had one get hot, probably because it has more contact surface, and beef than a 50-60 amp twist lock.


You can't just upgrade the breaker to 200A unless the service into the shop is sized for it.

Edited August 25, 2009 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[Mills]

To do the job by code, the main will need to be larger, which means it will need larger wire to feed it. To do it other than by code is something you would need to do yourself. There are many work arounds, some of which are dangerous no matter what, and some are ok as long as certain conditions are met. The reason for the code requirements is so that the circuitry is as bulletproof as possible for *anything* .

I have done my own work arounds, as have many here, I am not an electrician but I have a friend who is that I can call whenever. I worked beside him for a while and he taught me some basics, then I took a residential wiring and code class at the Vo Tech.

I say this because you are running into what we all do, we can get some cool old industrial equipment to play with, but it requires industrial power that our residences aren't set up for. So which way do you go from here? Hire an electrician? ka ching!! String extension cords? "Smoke on the water..." Learn enough to do a work around? Time bandit. Pass this up and buy a machine that will fit what you have? my head usually is ready to pop by this point.

You will unlikely be running this thing flat out, as others have pointed out. You could run it off of a 50 amp breaker. Perhaps a small subpanel primarily for the welder, but you can run some 110 circuits as well. That MAY be within code as well as your budget. That is where I call my friend and see if he sees any holes in my plan.

If you decide your actions on this on purpose, proactively, you will save yourself a lot of agonizing in the future.

[RcRacer]

To do the job by code, the main will need to be larger, which means it will need larger wire to feed it. To do it other than by code is something you would need to do yourself. There are many work arounds, some of which are dangerous no matter what, and some are ok as long as certain conditions are met. The reason for the code requirements is so that the circuitry is as bulletproof as possible for *anything* .

I have done my own work arounds, as have many here, I am not an electrician but I have a friend who is that I can call whenever. I worked beside him for a while and he taught me some basics, then I took a residential wiring and code class at the Vo Tech.

I say this because you are running into what we all do, we can get some cool old industrial equipment to play with, but it requires industrial power that our residences aren't set up for. So which way do you go from here? Hire an electrician? ka ching!! String extension cords? "Smoke on the water..." Learn enough to do a work around? Time bandit. Pass this up and buy a machine that will fit what you have? my head usually is ready to pop by this point.

You will unlikely be running this thing flat out, as others have pointed out. You could run it off of a 50 amp breaker. Perhaps a small subpanel primarily for the welder, but you can run some 110 circuits as well. That MAY be within code as well as your budget. That is where I call my friend and see if he sees any holes in my plan.

If you decide your actions on this on purpose, proactively, you will save yourself a lot of agonizing in the future.

Very well said!

[Pinjas]

To do the job by code, the main will need to be larger, which means it will need larger wire to feed it. To do it other than by code is something you would need to do yourself. There are many work arounds, some of which are dangerous no matter what, and some are ok as long as certain conditions are met. The reason for the code requirements is so that the circuitry is as bulletproof as possible for *anything* .

I have done my own work arounds, as have many here, I am not an electrician but I have a friend who is that I can call whenever. I worked beside him for a while and he taught me some basics, then I took a residential wiring and code class at the Vo Tech.

I say this because you are running into what we all do, we can get some cool old industrial equipment to play with, but it requires industrial power that our residences aren't set up for. So which way do you go from here? Hire an electrician? ka ching!! String extension cords? "Smoke on the water..." Learn enough to do a work around? Time bandit. Pass this up and buy a machine that will fit what you have? my head usually is ready to pop by this point.

You will unlikely be running this thing flat out, as others have pointed out. You could run it off of a 50 amp breaker. Perhaps a small subpanel primarily for the welder, but you can run some 110 circuits as well. That MAY be within code as well as your budget. That is where I call my friend and see if he sees any holes in my plan.

If you decide your actions on this on purpose, proactively, you will save yourself a lot of agonizing in the future.

Hah, I can't agree more, it feels good to hear the thread of thought go through others minds that is crossing my own. If I do indeed get a giant welder, I assume that I wouldn't push her to her limits. Right now I think the best plan is to keep it under 50 amps no matter what.
Some folks were telling me that the high frequency interference could be trouble, but I haven't heard of that from anyone else. I doubt it's anything to worry about.

[Aikenvb]

Pinjas:

Don't even think of an old tig welder or even a used one. You have a $1,500.00 price limit. Go on ebay and look for the best price on a Miller Dementions. This is a new welder
that miller makes in the mid-$1,300.00 range, delivered to your door. If you can go to a miller factory demonstration like at a Blacksmith regional conferance, Let them demo it then use it. The new machines are much, much, much better.

[arftist]

Pinjas:

Don't even think of an old tig welder or even a used one. You have a $1,500.00 price limit. Go on ebay and look for the best price on a Miller Dementions. This is a new welder
that miller makes in the mid-$1,300.00 range, delivered to your door. If you can go to a miller factory demonstration like at a Blacksmith regional conferance, Let them demo it then use it. The new machines are much, much, much better.

You must be talking about the Miller Diversion 165.
Pinjas wants to manufacture a product. The 165 is a hobby machine, with a low duty cycle and preset controlls. You get what you pay for.
I use all manor of TIGs, from old lincoln tombstones with high freq adapters, to synchrowaves to dynastys to thermal dynamics, to engine driven with adapters, etc. on a regular basis. I feel like I am well qualified to say that the newer machines and some features like wave balance and pulse can be easier to use, but not better. If you can't TIG aluminum, you can probably make a pretty bead sooner with a newer machine, but when you go to a different machine, you will make a pile of grapes.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

As for high frequency interference I know my TIG will make radios static, and a TIG will fry a computer / CNC if not shielded properly. A friend with a shop had a guy using some space who had a CNC. He asked him if it was shielded, and he said yes. When he fired up the TIG it crashed the CNC.


I have no problem recommending a used welder, or an old welder for that matter. I have used new welders, and I prefer my old Linde for TIG. I feel I have better control of the HF start, and arc with the points type HF generator. It is a very smooooooooth welder. The best part is I have less than $600 into a 350 amp TIG welder.


If possible, try out a few different welders, and see what YOU like best.

[Pinjas]

I got a miller 330 a/bp, sounds like the same thing as what dragon has. It weighs 1000 lbs and was a horrible trouble getting into my garage but it's there. It came with a foot pedal, water cooler, water cooled torch (wp-18), clamp or ground, plug and a small amount of consumables. I also paid a little extra for his runner wheels, I sure hope it never falls off of that thing, yikes.

I haven't got it setup yet though, which is a bit of a bummer, it's a work in progress. I setup a sub panel in my garage, I ran 3 thwn-2 #2 gauge copper wire and 1 #6 gauge copper wire from the main panel to the sub. Right now I am trying to get a neutral lug nut adapter rated for 100 to 125 amps. The part seems to be tough to find, which is shocking because they sell QO breaker boxes at places like menards in large quantities. I feel pretty comfortable with running 70 amps to the sub box for now. In the worst case scenario, I will trip the breaker every once in a great while. I doubt it will happen though.

What do you guys think? I have a 100 amp breaker and a 70 amp breaker, right now I have the 70 amp breaker in the sub panel and the 100 amp breaker to feed the sub. To me, this sounds logical and fine as the sub panel breaker would trip long before anything else would. Which would you put in the main?

I don't know if I should start another thread for this idea else where or not but I am also working on making my own air compressor. I have read a few places about this and many suggest cleaning out TIG welders with compressed air. I plan to do that but I also plan to use a pressure washer, someone on another forum suggested the idea on the basis that he does that all the time.

The inside of the TIG is covered in a sticky black soot. It was suggested that I spray it down with compressed air, then hose it out with a pressure washer, add some degreaser and then pressure wash again. After the pressure washing is done, hit it some more with some compressed air and then for good measure, leave it for a day with a few box fans on it to dry. This sounds like a fairly good idea to me. It was recommended that caution be used on much of the inside of the TIG, using too much pressure from the pressure washer could really mess things up, so I plan on using a gentle touch.

As any welder would agree, grinders are an essential tool on a welders belt. Personally, I think I would prefer to use air tools, at least for the hand grinder. There are several tools that use air rather than electricity. The positive in my mind is longevity. Electric run tools often burn out and break after a few months of use. I have no personal experience but I imagine that any air tool will outlast electric tools almost 100% of the time.

The problem I come onto is that store bought air compressors usually don't have the CFM output I need, in fact, that most need, at least at the prices I'd like to pay : D. Any thoughts on how I should go about building a nice air compressor, I imagine 5-15 CFM being good for just about anyone.

I am sure a small to large propane tank would be good, electric motor, I am not sure about the compressor and all that though.

[Dragons lair]

Pinjas, Personaly I would not use a pressure washer on the inside. Too much stuff can be damaged. As to air vs electric. I have both. For heavy work a I use a milwaukee 4 1/2
Inch super magnum or a 9 inch Bosch. Air doesn't have the power. Small die grinders/sanders and cutoffs work great. Compressor need to be a big (HP and CFM) that you can get unless you enjoy hearing it run all the time. Best advise for cleaning the miller Call miller tech support. Great guys.
Ken