Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) This question has come up, both in the form of a question and as an accusation. Everyone knows and recognizes that the professionals in our community have always been there to help with anyone who shares our love of the craft. We have always worked side-by-side as equals with anyone interested in blacksmithing. We are a diverse group who have always shared a common bond so lets not let anyone drive a wedge between us. Remember: We're here to have FUN! Keep it light and we can all enjoy together. This question was only relevant to our organization of professional smiths.* Edited July 27, 2009 by nakedanvil *explaination of post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divermike Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 In every endevour I have undertaken, from professional hardhat diving, to pest control, it seems there are always those who wish to elevate themselves at the expense of others, it seems a lot rarer in this circle, yet now and then you can smell it, I appreciate your sentiment and the work that Glenn does to keep this site sanitized, in the end, it is us who can shout down the obnoxious expert though. What gets my goat is those that post criticisms of others, yet never show any of their own work, I am happy to show the failures, and completed non skillful works I do, simply because I know others can take heart from it, and I simply don't care if someone is critical, generally on this forum, it has been very positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 "Drive a wedge?" Like who? I think you will find this the most sharing group in a craft that there ever was. At times it may seem critical to ask "do you have the necessary skills to make that". It is only that we are trying to lend instructions based on the question askers skill levels. We all are different, with different opinions, skill sets, and equipment. Many times questions must be asked to answer the question in an effective efficient manner. We can't assume that all people have our ability to do things, and in asking these questions the best answer is given. When a post starts "I just got my new forge on Saturday, and I want to build "X", that is when we all put on the instructors hats and go to work. The main thing is that we ALL learn safely, and correctly using our ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Jeff: Thanks for your comments, I think we are on the same page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hill Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Being a novice to this, there are many questions that myself and others would love to ask and even though this forum is very sharing, it is also very critical at times. Sometimes too critical to the point of making people feel almost afraid to ask questions for fear of ridicule. I read the posts and take what information I can and add it to all the rest floating around in my head, but to ask a question and feel as though I've been beat down for being new to the craft, just because someone was a founding member of ABANA?... I'll continue to read and learn as much as I can, but I doubt asking questions will happen. Least as far my account goes. I know it's just the case of "a few bad apples....", but it goes on. Look back through the archives and you'll see it. I know that the typed word is very impersonal, but it seems that almost every post that someone puts up is ridiculed at some time or another. Shouldn't be that way. We're all here to learn and share. Off the soap box :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I think most 'ridicule' that is found on this or any other forum is because many users have never learned proper etiquette on this or any other public forum. Common errors people make are: * Not searching first * Showing reckless ignorance while convinced they are right * Not using good titles for posts * Not spell checking, grammar checking These things do not change who you are, but alter the perception of you greatly. The perception dictates what kind of reception you will get. I went to my first hammer-in, still in my "civilian clothes". I did not look the part and no one seemed interested in talking with me. I got changed into dirty overalls, safety gear and found people much friendlier and more engaging. Dress the part on-line just as you would in real life. -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzom Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 As a new blacksmith myself this is the best resource I have found. Before I started I read many books and although they where very helpful in getting me started not one of them compared to the help and ideas I have got from this site. Sure every once in a while I read some pompous responses but on the internet that is to be expected. But in whole this site is great and I find myself coming here and reading and something new everyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecelticforge Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I think this is the reason I have only joined one guild in the entire 25 years I have been doing this. I have been to "group meetings" before where individuals feeling insecure swore that their method was bible. Sorta like Martha Stewart. From this and another online forum, I have received nothing but an open ear, and a friendly pointer when ever I needed it, whether I wanted it or not. Case in point: I decided to make a side draft even though most I have seen did not work well. The people here discussed it with me, offered suggestions, and now I have a side draft that is so powerful that I have to breath through my nose to keep my teeth in place. (exaggeration, but not by much.) Folks, to put it simply, you all rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Being a novice to this, there are many questions that myself and others would love to ask and even though this forum is very sharing, it is also very critical at times. Sometimes too critical to the point of making people feel almost afraid to ask questions for fear of ridicule. I read the posts and take what information I can and add it to all the rest floating around in my head, but to ask a question and feel as though I've been beat down for being new to the craft, just because someone was a founding member of ABANA?... I'll continue to read and learn as much as I can, but I doubt asking questions will happen. Least as far my account goes. I know it's just the case of "a few bad apples....", but it goes on. Look back through the archives and you'll see it. I know that the typed word is very impersonal, but it seems that almost every post that someone puts up is ridiculed at some time or another. Shouldn't be that way. We're all here to learn and share. Off the soap box :-) Please, Hill, post some questions. Some of us live to answer blacksmith/metalwork questions. Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. Boy, I hope I am not considered pompous. I try to give detailed answers to questions I know something about, for three reasons; because I want to help, because I enjoy writing, and to help preserve the art, and leave a permanent record for those who come later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Hill, I agree with Arftist. Please post any questions that you would like to find an answer to. Don't let a couple of jokers ruin your IFI experience. There are FAR MORE intelligent and experienced smith on this site than there are hacks!! I know that because these guys have helped me with a lot of different things. If you get an answer from someone that is what you think is too critical, just ignore that answer and pay attention to the others. Most everyone here wants to help. Off my soap box, too. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Hill: The concern for new folk stepping in on a thread where someone is getting a beating and getting the wrong impression of the whole forum has been discussed a few times and it still is a concern. Unfortunately, every once in a while someone will post one of the half dozen, "oh NO, not again" newby questions. Probably the most recurrent is the, "I don't know anything about blacksmithing. How do I make a sword?" introduction. When folk on the list answer this question honestly and openly it often sounds like a beat down. It's not, the question itself is as unrealistic as someone saying, "I don't know how to drive. Where do I sign up for the Indy 500?" Still, most of the time we don't drive the person off. There are however the occasional individuals who argue with every answer they don't like and often invent "facts" or things they've "SEEN" to back often impossible claims. The most memorable recently was the "complete titanium sword stuck in a 84kg boulder." Something that ridiculous just will NOT get a pass here, the claimant WILL get called and demands for evidence and will most likely be mocked if they persist. Trying to BS a field populated by a goodly % of experts is not a sign of a good story teller. Insisting in the face of expert refutation will catch heat, no question. Unfortunately some folk will just NOT settle for anything less than a beat down. Personally I try to ignore em because I don't need the frustration of engaging fools. Unfortunately the less this personality type knows the more they feel the need to pass on whatever flights of fancy they can come up with and other new comers just might believe them. At best this means the innocent newcomer gets a slow or backwards start into the craft, at worst they get themselves and or others injured. This behavior can NOT be allowed to pass unchallenged. Everybody gets things wrong, most accept corrections gracefully, some gratefully. The fools who insist on spouting bad info are almost the ONLY ones offended by corrections, often becoming beligerent sometimes they get all whiney and sometimes they go both ways depending on which they believe will garner the most support. The old saw about "no such thing as a dumb question" isn't exactly true, a smart alec who tries most certainly CAN come up with dumb questions. Then when they defend them with invented facts and argument they tend to get what they seek. A beat down. Sure, there are genuine personality conflicts where both individuals are actually good folk but just dont get along. Then there are the times when a normally (sorry, I don't usually apply the word to this esteemed crowd but . . .) gets ticked off or just plain sticks his/er foor in his/er mouth. Been there, done that, done both more often that I care to think about. However it's easy to deal with in a civilized manner, just don't engage folk you don't get along with and if you say something stupid, insult someone, etc. apologize. The beat downs are almost always a matter of "you reap what you sow." So please ask your questions, no matter how basic it is, genuine questions are welcome. Grant: If you're still reading at this point. In answer to the question posed in your title. Yes. ANY skilled craftsman is by definition a member of an elite group. Doesn't make us high and mighty of course, just part of a small % of people in this country skilled in a common craft. Has someone in particular been giving you a hard time about being an elitist? I think you're part of the elite here but only by measure of your lifetime in the craft, considerable contributions in tools, equipment and willingnes to share your expertise. So THERE. Frosty Edited July 28, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meinhoutexas Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 my .0002$ the art of smithing is or was almost lost and most of the smiths on this site want to teach not preach. And Frosty well said bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Good stuff here, folks. I for one understand the "beat downs" some newbies get with their "Gonna make a sword" posts. I was a newbie once, pretty much still am compared to a lot of the talent here. But I keep coming back and reading all I can here for one reason....You can never stop learning, and with the caliber of some of the smiths that post here on IFI, I'll keep coming back. Seems the talent just keeps building, and the instruction just gets better. Keep it up, folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Grant: As Frosty said we are elite. We are so because we have skills lacked by others in this too fast modern world. In my experience though blacksmiths in general are NOT. Elitist in the sense that we withhold our knowledge. Most are more than willing to share and some will nearly drag your backside over to the forge and tell you "Hey Look at this!!!. Isn't that neat!?" and then teach you how to do it. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larzz Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Grant, As one of the afore mentioned newbies. I hope you all are part of the Blacksmithing elite. Someday I intend to join you! It might take a few years though. Frosty..Well Said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Leppo Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I was going to make a comment about Arrogance, but it's not going to be helpful or pertinant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Even saintly smiths, on off moments, get frustrated in answering the same handful of questions over and over again. That is why forums in general try to direct newcomers to FAQ sections to read the information there prior to asking questions. Perhaps we need to go through some of the posts and extract information for the creation of FAQs on some of the most commonly asked questions. Then when a person asks a commonly asked question, they could be provided with the URL for that FAQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Confidence and arrogance can sometimes be confused with each other. And I liked what Finnr said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 there are at least 10 different ways to get to the same goal. What I learnd in cooking school it all comes down to putting money in the bank, Mcdonalds,wendy's and burger king Who makes a burger the right way not to mention all the other resturants who serve burgers. You can't teach style, just form. Each person will develop there own style and it is finding people to support and buy it. or you just make lots of stuff for yourself its putting your self out there. I myself am always learning thats why I like this forum get a chance to see how others do the same task. Then trying it out for my self or combining idears to fit my needs. In my area a hundred mile range there are only a few who blacksmith so it is tough to get together with them to exchange idears except once a month. Elite no just a bunch of people standing over a fire sweeting and beating metal sometimes solitary. This is a great sorce of info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisfrick Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Just an observation from a "newbie"--I originally got into blacksmithing because I was (sort of still am) interested in/convinced that I could *someday*, create a Japanese Katana using the same materials and techniques from old Japan. However, I do realize that an endeavor like that takes almost a lifetime to achieve, and I have at least started on the long, long road of creating something very, very difficult (and may never reach my goal). That being said, I have never been belittled by anyone on *any* blacksmithing site and believe that the tone set by experienced smiths trying to steer beginners away from sword making is not angry, but a factual representation of what must occur before such things can be made. If the tone is percieved as "elitist," when trying to explain to someone that has ZERO experience in the craft, that there is A LOT of hard work and pre-requisite knowledge that MUST be mastered before, then so be it. I *try* to research my questions *before* asking you guys just to "save face" and not look too dumb, but then again--for the most part, everyone here usually helps out or points me in the right direction. (And there's got to be at least one person on IFI that's looked at one or more of my posts and either laughed out loud, or threw something across the room!--hopefully not this one!) So, from my very limited experience, I have not seen evidence of anyone on IFI being "elitist." This forum provides a wealth of knowledge, gathered from thousands of people, all with their individual specialties, who are willing to help people like me and share their experiences. Edited July 28, 2009 by chrisfrick grammatical errors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Can we have Badges :) Edited July 28, 2009 by Sweany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urnesBeast Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Badges!??!! We don't need no stinking badges! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Yes Sweany you may have a badge. In fact I think it's a darned good idea for you to have a badge, a LARGE one. Maybe a big, bright red flag too. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosco Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 This response follows that of Chrisfrick by a few months, but I wanted say that I agree completely with Chris and wanted to add my 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosco Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I guess Chrisfrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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