adamj Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 does anybody know if plow points have enough carbon in them to make a decent knife cause i come across old ones all the time. Also what about discs from old hars because i know where there are more than plenty rusting away in the woods around here. thanks for any resonses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Depends; plow points were made a lot of different ways: Do a spark test on them or heat and quench a section and check for hardness. Most of the thin disks will usually be a steel with enough carbon to make a decent knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseff Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 If you're finding all this old farm equipment, look for an old rake harrow, with the long curved tines, its excellent spring steel. Joseff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rokshasa Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 most old farm equipment that was used for any kind of hard work(tilling and the sort) is mid to high carbon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I made a skinner out of an old cultivator sweep and it took a pretty decent edge. Wound up using it as a utility knife so it gets a lot of use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamj Posted July 19, 2009 Author Share Posted July 19, 2009 thanks everybody i will try one soon and see what comes out of it. joseff i have used the tines you are talking about to make a small neck knife works really nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I made a skinner out of a disk. It is harder than hell. You half to be careful with the quench. The first one we made, we did a full dunk in oil and it shattered when we tried to cold work a twist. The second one we only quenched the edge of the blade then normalized. Boy it came out nice and holds one hell of an edge. Mutt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 How did you temper after quenching them? Also normalizing *after* quenching would remove the heat treat for the edge. Are you using the jargon correctly? Generally you: Normalize x [1-3], Harden(heat & quench) and then Temper x [1-3] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) We tempered after quenching by slowly ....... really slowly, bringing the blade up to temp until it was a straw color. It took some of the brittleness out of the blade. The edge stayed hard as hell but the middle of the blade and the back was brought back to a little more of a flexable temper. Does that clear it up. When I used the term "normalize" I meant bring it back from that brittleness and temper it to a proper hardness. We edge quenched to get a really hard cutting edge and then after that had cooled, we tempered the entire blade. When we tempered the whole blade, it wasn't enough to loose all the hardness of the edge do to the type of metal we used. The metal from those disks is great stuff. Not sure of the official steel content, but it is already hardened for use as a plow. We just played around with that hardness when we worked it. We had a very knowledgable well known bladesmith teaching us when we did this. So, I am pretty sure we did it right. He was really please with the outcome of our second try. Here is the "close to final product" before final polishing and the handle. Mutt Edited September 10, 2009 by Muttt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher P. Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) For your benefit, Mutt, some clarification on terms... To Normalize: bringing the steel to critical (Ac1), and allowing to cool in still air. Often done during the forging process to relieve stress and refine grain. To Temper: improving very hard (and brittle) steel to pretty hard (but tough) steel from its freshly-quenched state, to a more manageble mix of beta martensite and cementite, accomplished by heating to around 420 or so (the Ms point). Oxides, the colors on the surface, are a good visual indicator of the temperature the surface has reached. For the record, the effects of tempering have much more to do with the temperature the steel reaches than the chemistry of the steel itself. Various blends have a range of effective temps, but these are often measured in 10's of degrees, usually smaller than even a well calibrated Mark One Eyeball can estimate using a torch or toaster oven. Personally, I often start at about 350, and finish a cycle of 3 tempers at 400-425 degrees. I also save the last temper for the next day, to catch any retained austenite that converted into fresh untempered martensite... in some alloys, this can take up to 24 hours, and is less common with simple steels. I am curious, does your well-known bladesmith tutor have a name? For further reading on heat treatment of steel, I highly reccomend Kevin Cashen's article found here: http://www.swordforum.com/metallurgy/ites.html Good luck! - Chris Edited September 10, 2009 by Christopher P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Ac1 is up in the "glowing" range BTW so doing it after hardening is contraindicated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the clearification. I was using the terms wrong. So ..... I can deffinitely see where that reply was confusing. Hope my later replies cleared it up. Oh, I was at a gathering and there were lots of people there working different kinds of crafts. Several guys there were forging (that's actually what got me started/interested) one of the bladesmiths there was Tom Sterling from Coupeville Sterling Sculptures ,but even though he was actually there doing other things including metal carving/etching etc. he was involved with some of the forging and was also very knowledgable. The well known bladesmith there was Blaine. He was very well known by all the others there, but it was the first time I ever met him. He was nice enough to teach me and my son what he could in a day. He lives in the Seattle / Tacoma area but for the life of me, I can't remember his last name. He had tons of his stuff there on display and has tought many of the guys that were at the gathering to forge and make knives. Hope that explains a bit. I don't claim to be all that great. I am just a beginner. But, the knives we made from disks came out great. As far as the well known bladesmith ...... I have no idea whether or not you know a Blaine in the Seattle area. But, the people there said he was very well known in our area. If ya know him ya know him ..... if ya don't ya don't. I'm just glad he was nice enough to help out me and my kid. Im not sure about austenite or converted fresh untempered martensite. But, all we had available that day was a small gas forge and a pan of oil for quenching. We did what we could with what we had and the results came out very favorable. I just figured I would reply and let the guy know that you can make a decent blade from a plow disk. As far as all the terms go and what happens on a molecular level ....... I wouldn't even begin to try to get into that kind of discussion. I used a term wrong and made a party foul ..... my bad. Mutt Edited September 11, 2009 by Muttt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher P. Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I hope you didn't think I was trying to beat you up, man... quite the opposite. It's clear you're beginning, and the sooner you get good information, the sooner you start making quality work you'll be proud of. I was just trying to help. I hope I didn't make you feel bad about it. I will simply suggest, and this is my own opinion, that getting one's head around heat treatment is the most important skill in bladesmithing. It's the alchemy that makes it all worthwhile, turns soft iron into hard steel, and is ultimately the key to making good knives. I go back and read Kevin's article about once every 6 months, and I've been doing this for 10 years. I still get confused with some of the terms, but I always strive to make better work, and this is in my mind a very large part of it. Good luck, and happy forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttt Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 That's cool, That is what I hate about posting. Sometimes, you don't get the intent behind a person's typed word's. I thought you were on the offensive. My bad. I completely mistook your comments. I do appreciate the schooling though. I had been using the terms loosely and back wards for a little while. I always hope to learn more ..... I'm not young but I am new. Thanks. Mutt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 (edited) Don't worry about it Mutt. Misusing heat treatment terms is one of the most common mistakes made by beginners. It's no big thing especially if you're open to corrections. Sometimes folk can get a little prickly when we get a newcomer, usually a teen wanting to make a sword for his first introduction into metal working, wants to argue, make wild claims, etc. That happens pretty often and gets tiring. It's difficult to dispell misinformation without so disheartening the new guy he leaves the forum. I say "he" because I've never met a gal who thought she could forge a blade from "knowledge" (I use the term about as loosely as it can be) gleaned from roll playing games. Unfortunately you can't let the misinformation stand or someone else may try it and make something dangerous. Dangerous as in breaking without warning and injuring someone. It's a tough balancing act that has to be done and it wears on a guy. That's not what it happened this time, you just got an in depth if darned brief run down of heat treatment. In fact I think Christopher's reply covered more of the nuts and bolts basics in a shorter time than just about any I've seen. Anyway, thanks for joining in and thanks for sharing pic of your blade. Frosty Edited September 11, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junker Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 hey frosty, i resemble that remark lol... there's no problem with wanting to make a sword wen you're just starting out... that's the point... you're just starting out and don't know any better... it is a good way to tell those who are serious though... most people quit when they find out it's gonna take them years to be able to make a sword... not many of us stick around:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Ah HAH! I knew there was something annoying about you! Yeah, that's what I mean by it being a balancing act injecting some reality into the dream without discouraging them completely. some ya gotta gentle, some ya gotta spur. I know I was an exceptionally annoying youngster with far wilder ideas than most. I don't know how Dad kept himself from drowning me. Maybe it was because he was even worse as a kid? Grammy Frost snitched him out one day while we were visiting. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher P. Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 No worries, Mutt. I know I have a low post count here... I spend most of my online time at Don Fogg's forum... but I peek in every now and then, and thought it was time to start commenting again. Lucky you. Frosty, thanks for the compliment. And, by the way, I was born in Bremerton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I just calls em like I sees em Christopher. I was born in Everett. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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