Bryce Masuk Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) This is the first time I have done vertical welding with a mig the only other times i have done it was with my 1950 something miller 180 stick is photo 1 weld too crowned? is photo 2 weld better ? alot of guys i have seen doing vertical welds keep the weld like the first inch bit on the right side of the picture above is this what i should be shooting for? Edited July 6, 2009 by Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RcRacer Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 The first looks a little colder than the second. The second looks good but the only way to tell if the welds are correct is to cut a cross section and look at the penetration. You can use muriatic acid to get the contrast between the parent and filler metals. My vertical welds don't look so good so the only way to tell is to check the penetration ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 If I had to trust my life on one of those welds i'd choose the right picture. Simply because there I can tell you've gotten successful penetration. Now on the left you may have gotten good penetration even though it is slightly crowned. Or you may have no penetration in the center of that weld. I would take both of them and cut them in half and do Racers reccomendation. It's nearly impossible to tell from a picture what kind of penetration you've got there. Hence why do they all that xray testing and dye color penetrates, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 will do why not learn what i can from experimenting, this was done at 19 volts with 290 wire speed .030 wire and c25 gas Im really focusing on becoming the complete metal fabricator Improving My lay out Welding Blacksmithing Sheet metal forming Artistic design Looking at interesting things such as the works of euclid, studying human anatomy and figure sketching Im thinking I may even take some autocad classes and set up a plasma table when i start to be well enough organized Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 will do why not learn what i can from experimenting, this was done at 19 volts with 290 wire speed .030 wire and c25 gas Im really focusing on becoming the complete metal fabricator Improving My lay out Welding Blacksmithing Sheet metal forming Artistic design Looking at interesting things such as the works of euclid, studying human anatomy and figure sketching Im thinking I may even take some autocad classes and set up a plasma table when i start to be well enough organized One of the best knife makers (probably on the planet) told me that if you want to do incredible things then learn to draw and sketch. It was his opinion that good design starts with transferring what is in the mind to paper. I do put some stock in that even though I am terrible at drawing. But drawing really helps with one thing for sure, that is demonstrating your idea to others and visualizing appearance before you start utilizing time and materials. I also think being task oriented and creating processes, and improving the speed of those processes is a big part of fabrication, especially when performing fabrication services. You may be the best fabricator in the world but if you can't perform services timely with significant profit you will never earn a successful income with it. Anyway just some food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatamax Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 If I had to trust my life on one of those welds i'd choose the right picture. Simply because there I can tell you've gotten successful penetration. Now on the left you may have gotten good penetration even though it is slightly crowned. Or you may have no penetration in the center of that weld. I would take both of them and cut them in half and do Racers reccomendation. It's nearly impossible to tell from a picture what kind of penetration you've got there. Hence why do they all that xray testing and dye color penetrates, etc. If possible can you explain how you can tell that he has got good penetration on the second pic, i'm not questioning your ability just trying to learn what you were looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avadon Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 (edited) If possible can you explain how you can tell that he has got good penetration on the second pic, i'm not questioning your ability just trying to learn what you were looking for. Oh it was simple. The pic on the right looks like it may be a little underfilled. At least there I know that the weld pool brought both the metals together and the liklihood of a cold shut is probably less. But I guess it may be a toss up. Would you rather go with an undercut weld that may have decreased strength but good penetration or a weld that looks like it was overfilled/crowned and may have hardly broken the surface of the metals. To me at least with the undercut I can see that some welding occured. (i'm not an expert though, just saying if I had to choose the lesser of the two ) This is just a serious guess because when you look at a weld in a picture sometimes it can look undercut or crowned depending on the way the light shines on what should look like a stack of knocked over dimes. Looking at a picture from the end(profile) would be the best way to tell. Those welds in both pics though look 95% better then a lot of the homebrew welds you see floating around out there.. so I certainly wouldn't stress to much. Definitely on the right track. Edited July 7, 2009 by Avadon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 Personally lot of my day is spent welding (aluminum lately too which i hate because of the white smoke and aluminum dust and such)however I am only 23 and i cant say i have done it for 20 years, when i welded both pieces I know they both achived good penetration however the one on the left was done afterwards and the heat from the other weld sunk into the center piece of metal I also welded slower on it which is why there is more metal upon it because I was trying to improve my technique I should have probley increased the wire speed and the speed of my hand when I was doing it, I spend at least half an hour a day drawing but its never enough for me, I have a pirates chest full of drawing's but I am still not on the level of being able to draw or create, what i can visualize but one can hope to step closer towards it though out life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RcRacer Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I'm looking at both pieces and can't see the HAZ. How can you be sure that you have good penetration without cutting a cross section? In the pictures, there is nothing that says anything about penetration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 Having 20 + years of professional welding experience I can say this: Both pictures "look" nice. However, I agree with others; the only way to really tell if there is good penetration is to cut a cross section and test. i.e. Acid etch, X-ray, Color dye, Bend test, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 when I have time i will cut them up, typically you can tell when you are welding whether you get good penetration or not or at least i would hope so, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RcRacer Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 when I have time i will cut them up, typically you can tell when you are welding whether you get good penetration or not or at least i would hope so, With MIG, I can tell that I am melting parent metal and that my bead is "wetting" nicely while I am watching the puddle. Afterward, the profile of the bead and HAZ may hint that it is a good weld but penetration can only be determined by the tests that Dodge mentioned. For home stuff, that means cutting a cross section and etching to determine how much penetration. When using TIG, you have more control over the melting of parent metal and therefore can be more confident of penetration but still not know the full extent of the penetration until cutting a cross section. Too many times, I have seen examples of what looked like a good MIG weld that were just essentially caulking jobs that wouldn't hold. That includes some that I have done and thought were good ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseshoe182 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Both welds look good. If I was to be picky I would say the beginning bit on the second weld , the weave apprears to be to coarse, or to say, moving up the weld pool in to much in the cycle, keep it tighter. you have good control and good consistancy. In Oz, we are taught to weld vertical up in two passes, first pass- small root run, second pass- an one cap. But it looks like you,ve done it in one pass, nothing wrong with that, but you are more prone to Crowning as you call it. In a two pass, it tends to flatten more. Your stops and starts are good too. I think you are a good welder. Edited July 12, 2009 by horseshoe182 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I don't have quite the years of experience that Dodge has. I have made however thousands of vert welds with mig on tubing welding pockets, end frames and complete stack racks. ALL these verts were made DOWN, HOT with old Miller CA250's and CA300's. 035 wire and 95-5 mix. I'll agree that the man with the xray or the man with the gouge (or porta-band) will tell if those welds are are good. They appear to be solid looking to me but I'm not the welding inspector or the man that has to sign off on the project. Don't mean to sound arrogant. You want some vert welding practice......get an OLD tank trailer (say 2000 gallon) with a standard tongue for drawbar hookup. The space for the drawbar is not wide enough for large modern tractor. The fella you work for wants it fixed. Torch the 2 tabs off and end up with the front of the trailer tongue blank. Take some 3/4 x 2 1/2, cut 2 pieces I guess 4 1/2 long. Bore 1 1/8 hole as per the employer's specification. Tack these onto another piece (same stock) for the rear of the new hitch mount. Clamp a piece of 2" between the tabs to ensure proper width and place an 1 1/8" hitch pin in the holes to keep alignment. Now proceed to weld this all together (root 6011 vert up and otherwise standard position and overhead then cap passes with 7018). If the place of employment would have had a pulse mig I would have welded this all with it and made the verts down. Not the case so I did with the stick. I made a phone call or 2 to refresh myself on technique. This trailer is in service going down the highway to various farms for a couple weeks or so in the spring of the year. I am confident in my welds. I have seen some very nice looking mig welds that were only fused to one side (all positions). These were not my welds. I have gouged enough of my own welds out because of either bad prints or my own mistakes (on pretty big stock) to know that modern mig is incredibly strong. Seems like you will never find the bottom crack. Re-grind the fillet and make corrections to square or alignment and then re-weld. I am greatful to have had the re-education on stick when I did the work on that trailer and a lot of other stuff for the fella I mentioned earlier. He had a Miller 200 mig and I used it for a lot of stuff as well. This fella had me weld black street elbows to stainless tank for fittings for sight guage. I am no longer employed by him. I have no doubts why he cannot keep employees but am greatful for the time and experience. Perhaps seems like a rant, sorry. Not the intention. Stack welds (root and cap passes) are far superior to one pass welds in my opinion (as stated in other posts). Many professional welders on this site and glad to read their posts. In the years I built stack racks none ever re-appeared for repair of faulty welds. We built them at a pretty fast rate (80-100 racks per team per day). Those racks take a beating in industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 I totally agree with 2 passes being better than one, the whole reason of this post was to hopefully get knowledge and opinion from those who have been there and done that, I like using the stick welder as well but its just not practical for some applications because you need to ensure all the flux is gone inside of small area's and the speed is much slower, but sometimes i use it just because the mig torch cant fit in there the speed of the weld when welding with stick in vertical position is really noticable as well not only in the time but the motion of your hands I have a really nice stick welder my great uncle gave it to me, its a miller 61cf he made his living in the 60's in St louis while getting his education as a chiropractor At first I honestly thought I might have a chance at being purely a artist blacksmith if I invested enough time, now I realise inorder to make enough money and still have somewhat of a free leash I will be doing alot of fabrication and some projects will have small forged pieces added, and others will have none at all because many people are simply looking for utillity and that for them is enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 hey Bryce never mind if the drawings are no good - its such good practise on so many levels - a way of getting your ideas/mental pictures into your hand - which is where they are going to take shape from after all - it also trains your eyes up better and makes nice little (or big?) brain connections - drawing is BRILLIANT in my oppinion even if you are no artist - i do it all the time!;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 If you have a good source of compressed air, get yourself a needle scaler for chipping stick weld scale. I do not own one but have used them. Many companies make them from pricey to fairly affordable. the man (unless it is a woman Beth ) that has spent time chipping slag and also using a needle scaler will appreciate the function of the tool. After the needle scaler, hit with compressed air blast. If the pass was a good weld and no grinding needed, the scaler and air blast will prepare for next pass in EXTREMELY fast time comparitively speaking. Some scale just falls off I know. If you want welds with no inclusions this tool excels. I will also tell you that this tool can in some instances replace grinding prior to welding (removal of millscale on channel is an example). Grinding prior to welding is of course one of the keys to good clean fillet. Some places think this is a waste of time and do not really understand the weld much less the puddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yeah needle scalers are nice to have, I rember my buddy used to use it for pranks at work he would hook it up and when someone went to take a dump he would run in the bathroom and take it to the metal door and it would litterally scare the sh@t out of people lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbillysmith Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) I am not an expert in neither destructive nor non-destructive testing, but what I can surely say is I have taken proper schooling for two years and was taught by a very intelligent man who was and still is a CWI (Certified Welding Inspector) who is also a welder so he knows a great deal of knowledge on the specifics of welding and KNOWS what to look for. I am also currently attending the Hobart Institute of Welding Technologies in Troy, Ohio where the instructors have a vast knowledge and a great deal of experience in the field. I also have plans to get my CWI license when I have the funds to put myself through the course (which is over $1,000 just to be issued the test. That's not including the course). What I can tell you, however, is that Dodge is most certainly correct in that there is in no way you can judge the penetration by visual inspection and that to the weldment needs to be subject to any of the following; 1- magnetic particle testing 2- dye penetrate testing 3- radiography test 4- X-ray test 5- ultrasonic test 6- nick-break test 7- cross-sectional etch test I can also say with the utmost confidence that neither of the welds in the pictures will even pass a visual test by anyone who knows welding let-alone according to AWS or ASNT standards and here's why; 1- the weld is too high crowned 2- there are significant signs of cold starting 3- there is insufficient fusion at the toe 4- there is cold lap 5- the craters are underfilled 6- the weld legs are not uniform Not being a CWI, I cannot say anything with 100% quality of knowledge, but I'm just stating the obvious. Besides, seeing the wire stick in the one picture, I would bet that the machine wasn't set properly nor was there very good manipulative techniques used. If I had to place anything on the line, I bet that if you were to construct another one for break testing (welding only one side not both) that it could probably be broken by hand in a bench vise and wouldn't even need a hydraulic press and would fail examination. -Hillbilly Edited August 2, 2009 by Hillbillysmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseshoe182 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Hey Hillbill, it was his first go at vertical up. Shore its not perfect but Bryce could come and weld for me any time. Do you think he has done anything right?, as you realy have put up quite a list of welding flaws. Lets see some of your vertical ups. I,m sorry ,but I find this post a little offensive. Bryce has posted his first time efforts, and here you are with two years weld experience really stick,in the boot, so to speak. We are all here to learn from one another, but carm down mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I was taught to do vertical MIG welds starting at the top and running down the joint, gun pointing up, little side to side movement. By dragging the weld bead you get deeper penetration. On thicker plate, say 1/2' and up you do multiple passes - 3 on up to however many it takes. You want a weld section equal or greater than the material section being welded, . The part will be as strong as the thinnest section, so more isn't better. Also don't move side to side as much, concentrate on the bead filling the vee. It doesn't have to be done in one pass. If your MIG is running right it will sound like bacon cooking, nice and smooth. As for MIG welding aluminum. If your unit has enough umph (arc density) try spray arcing it. Basically you ramp the voltage up, and cut the wire speed down until the wire never touches the part, but is transfered by the arc. I found it easiest to do with two people. Me welding and telling my partner how to adjust the controls as I was welding. MIGs you can adjust while welding, DO NOT adjust an ARC welder while welding, as you can smoke the rheostat. Vertical with a stick-mmmmmm love 7018. The slag just falls off leaving a beautiful weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Most places I have worked verticle down was not allowed except in non critical welds. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeatGuy Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Bryce if you want to get a better handle on your welding enrole in a level c welding class at Kwantlen college. Kwantlen has good instructors and a state of the art teaching facility in addtion it is also close to you. The course is 28 weeks, in the end you will end up with a proper understanding of what you are doing and all position CWB certifications for SMAW, GMAW, MC/FCAW. brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbillysmith Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I appologise if my post seemed offensive. I in no way meant anything such as this in what I said. I know its no excuse, but I didnt read the whole post and did not know that it was his first weld (vertical up at least) until you brought it to my attension and for that I thank you..... As for doing things correctly, yes, there are many things he did right. He obviously knows his gun angles and weaving techniques. To add some advice to help him along the way, be sure to watch, study, and learn to read the puddle. This is what tells you the most about your weld. You want it fluid but not so fluid that it falls off the material (obviously). And, when youre doing vert. up, be sure to use a good side-to-side motion pausing at the sides for a short length of time and moving slightly quicker through the center or the weld bead. One thing that I have been told and I know it works, is to make a figure "A" in almost a slight triangular formation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbillysmith Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 My post was simply meant to give information on what to look for and what to correct on welds that have such "simptoms" so you can make it better that next time. Plus I gave info on how to actually test someones welds if they were interrested to do so. Radiography, magnetic-particle, x-ray, and ultrasonic test cant be done by the average joe. To properly do a break test, weld a "TEE" joint on one side only. Then, set it aside until it cools to ambient temp. Next, place the weldment in a bench vise so that in tightening you would be crushing the weld instead of stretching it until it collapses (if the weld breaks, its ok). Last, look at the welded edge of the vertical piece (the part that would be vertical in the letter "T"). You are looking for a straight line of base material (this represents no/not enough penetration). There is an allowance according to AWS code but not 100% what it is. I THINK its 3/16 inch total. If there arent any lines, job well done!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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