Posting Courtesy

[TASMITH]

First off I would like to thank Robert(AKA Quenchcrack) for starting this thread.You have brought up very valuable points in regards to postings on this forum. Well said!

Secondly, to Glenn and Andrew for developing this site and all the efforts put into maintaining and improving on it. In my opinion it is one of the most informative and well run sites on the Internet! Also Steve Sells and the other Moderators of this site for their hard work and efforts in helping to keep order in the midst of chaos! A tremendous job well done by all!

It can be difficult at times for senior members on this site to see the same questions posted time and again on various subjects as well as misplaced questions in the wrong part of the forum. As Glenn has stated however, It is the very First time on this site for a lot of Newbies and I think they can be forgiven for posting questions that have been posted and replied to several times already or even having posted in the wrong spot. Most of them seem to catch on pretty quickly however to the way the forum is set up and try and post properly in the future.

Most senior members are patient with the newcomers and properly address their questions by pointing them to the appropriate thread containing the information they require and/or responding yet again with an appropriate answer. It is the unfortunate few that do not seem to read the reply that is posted and will post the same or similar question again in another portion of the forum.Sometimes it may be that they don't understand the response for whatever reason but if you post the question again please clarify your reason for asking again.

A lot of times you may be directed to a thread which has the answers already posted on the subject in question. This helps the moderators and the people of this forum from having to take the time to cover something that has been covered extensively and frees them up to answer new questions or comments on something new, and at the same time gives the person asking the question an opportunity to read good informative information.

I am a Blacksmith who has had the opportunity to serve an apprenticeship. I spent 7,280 hrs and three years of night school and a further 3,060 hrs "improvership" to get my ticket. I spent thirty years working as a Blacksmith in the industrial sector, working primarily on power hammers and doing heat treating.The majority of my experience involved making tools, some of which were specialized for use in the primary steel making industry and in a drop forging operation.

When people post questions on the forum, I will respond only with the particular part of the trade that i am experienced in. Although i have thirty years experience in the trade, I will not attempt to answer questions on knife making as I have no experience with making knives myself. Many aspects of this trade have their own sub set of skills required and Knife making is a prime example. Yes it involves forging but their are many different methods for achieving this that take practice and is a specialty in its own right. If I was going to begin making knives I would post questions to those I know have been doing it for a number of years and have mastered many of the little "tricks" of the trade.Newbies on the forum have no idea as to who has the knowledge or skills best suited to answer their questions and so post their questions to a general location such as Blacksmithing. If you take the time to read the responses you will soon discover who or where you should be looking or posting to to get the answers you seek.

Even with my training and experience I still look for information on the forum and have learned new things on a regular basis. I have discovered new ideas of things to make or do and some new methods of doing things that I never tried before. I am willing to share what I know but try and keep my responses based on what I know and done myself and have even offered my opinion on things that I have seen or experienced first hand. However I always try to be as accurate as possible and will often state that the response I have given is to the best of my knowledge and will give references if at all possible. I may not be entirely accurate sometimes and am more than willing to admit to my mistakes and stand corrected by someone who may know better.

I will also defer to someone who has more background in a particular field, such as a metallurgist in regards to heat treating of something or the composition of steels as that is their field of specialty and my experience is based strictly on those metals and heat treatment that I have dealt with in my career.

I think we all learn something from this forum and we should all make the effort to try and keep it as responsible and truly informative as possible. I feel it is one of the best forums of its type on the "Net" and would like to thank all who post to it!

Time to get off the soapbox!

Next

Terry

[kubiack]

I like the idea of having post separated out by content. This makes it easier to find the information that you are looking for. However, I also like to see all new posts in one place so that I don’t have to click through each section to see each new post. I think that is why on most forums most content ends up in a general type section. My suggestion would be to keep the content separated into sections and also have a view all section that shows the content from all sections. In the view all section no new threads could be started but a new post could be added to a current thread.

My hats off to Glenn and the moderators this is the best public forum I have found on the internet.

[Thomas Dean]

I like the idea of having post separated out by content. This makes it easier to find the information that you are looking for. However, I also like to see all new posts in one place so that I don

[kubiack]

You are correct that is indeed what I was referring to, thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Quenchcrack]

It kinda looks like we have several topics all competing for attention here. My original post meant to address irresponsible answers to legitimate questions. It did not suggest that we should not ask questions as one response implied; questions are the energy that propels this forum. It is the nonsense replies that pose the threat. The posting of questions in the wrong place is probably unavoidable until the new people get accustomed to this forum. Sorry, Steve, more work for you, I'm afraid. As far as editing our own posts go, this is something we can all do to help reduce Steves workload. Read your post before you hit "submit reply". Then read it again on the forum. I have edited some posts two or three times to correct errors and tone down my choice of words. We can take responsibility for the surpression of misinformation WITHOUT it being a burden to the Moderators. Each of us can take care of our own posts first and address the nonsense with a firm, but civil, response when we see it.

[Steve Sells]

The topic is labeled posting courtesy, Some members do not understand that concept. Why did I post, and later suggest you read #32? because it pointed out over 150 posts per day here keeps us very busy, it explained WHY some of us get annoyed at some posts.

The suggestion of all posts being moderated/approved before getting posted to the forum would actually mean some posts would NEVER get posted.

[Glenn]

How to find the new posts on IFI

[Sweany]

SHEESH STEVE, you are way to serious.

my point is ever time somebody mentions A post or csatergory you go into a rant.

makes for a well less friendly atmosphere.

makes for less people wanting to post, and less ideas exchanged.

Well,maybe that's why you do it???

"The suggestion of all posts being moderated/approved before getting posted to the forum would actually mean some posts would NEVER get posted. "

sorry that was sarcasm
__________________

Edited May 21, 2009 by Sweany

[Steve Sells]

Of course I take this serious. Sarcasm doesn't always carry over in text. Most people also know it does not translate well into the many other languages here.

I refuse to comment on your "Well,maybe that's why you do it??" slur

Edited May 22, 2009 by steve sells
typo

[Glenn]

Sweany,
Are you saying that you would like to volunteer to read and approve 150 to 200 posts a day in order to help weed out any mis-posted, mis-located posts or posts that need attention? You would need to open each URL listed to be sure it was correctly linked to where it was suppose to go, and resize any photos that do not fit the forum format. BTW this is usually done within 4 hours of them being presented to the site at the current time.

We need to realign to north and address the original issue, to suggest a few ideas to keep the transfer of mis-information to a minimum.

[Rich Hale]

Time for me to chime in...BAck to the original issue in this thread......I am not sure there is a solution; some folks will respond to a question even if they have no clue what the question is about. Some one above said it earlier. " I am not familiar with this question but let me tell you this", that of course is not a direct quote but I hope you get the point. I only have a small glimpse into the background of most folks on here and have narrowed down the ones that I read everything they write and learn from it. How a new person sorts that out I do not know. Maybe a note from admin to those would help them.

[nelson]

Hi folks,
Most people responding to this thread are somewhat right to some extent. We`re addressing an issue that applies to so many other human affairs, and here too, misinformed, joking, obnoxious and all sorts of people may feel at home. A lot of patience is required to deal with them, but let`s face it, I believe many don`t realize the burden and confusion derived. Nonetheless, the call for more tactfulness, and to contribute to the betterment of the site as well as the enrichment of ourselves, is valid. We all must be aware, that people can take some of our mistakes, now let`s not over do it.This a great site and the administrators, moderators, and the whole team, are all doing an excellent job as volunteers, that`s a task most of us appreciate. Recently, I interviewed a guy to help with some welding, and he brought along documents to show some of his experience. As I have a very, very small business, my interest is focused more on performance that what a paper may say. He flunked! The reason I bring this up, is not to underestimate academic or work credentials, no,is just that probably in the case of blacksmithing a picture of what one does, along with tips, and tech description and so on, may be generally speaking, more useful and significant than a number of years by itself. There are many ways to skin a cat, and someone may just be informing about his way, which may not be the most adequate from another buddy’s view. So it can get a bit touchy huh. Most definitely, nonsense bugs people. The senior versus junior issue I find it irrelevant for the most part. Regarding the hierarchy suggestion, well there are probably better ways to bring people together. Labels are distinctive all right, but if this a sharing and learning forum, that could become more a barrier, and appear egotistical to some. Keeping it simple and open makes the site more attractive, but again we must remind all including ourselves that hard working people don`t want to be buried with junk, nor is it fair to confused someone trying to get sound advice. Frankly, this is one of the best structured sites I've seen, where people openly share and learn. Last but not least, as a newbie, I've had a few mess ups, but seems appropriate to check what one writes before going on the air. Generally, I`m learning that when in doubt, it`s best not to post... Congratulations to all. Nelson.

Edited May 22, 2009 by steve sells
language

[Sweany]

Glenn, no i'm not saying ever thing should be screened.
I think y'all just need to let it go. Ranting about someones posting method is really of no value.

There was another forum, no longer with us, one of the posters, mispelled a lot and his sentance structure was terrible. He got ranted at so much he quit posting. He had some good stuff to say, but it took a little bit of extra effort sometimes to understand his post. THE REASON for his bad structureing was he had had a stroke and was doing the best he could to relate his years of smithing experience.

Toleranace is a good thing to learn. It's just little irritating that in a free discussion so much empasis is place on
"the right type of question" IF you don't know you don't know. Constant belittling of dumb newbie questions will drive people away. one of my old mentors taught me to listen. Listen to ever thing, if it is a basic question, that at least makes us stop to think. How exactly do I do that.

Sometimes in a familiar task our brain just automaticly does some of the steps It may not be apparent to those that have never done the task. A good teacher ALSO learns from his pupils. Many time a student not knowing the "correct" method comes up with a different method, sometimes surprisingly good.

there is more than one way to skin a cat The original intent of the post was I think very good. which to me in a nutshell was, (donot post something you have no knowledge of claiming it to be valid) check it out first, or label it as hearsay.

I think we divirged from it and got back into complaining about dumb questions and literacy again. I for one was resposible for that I apologize.

Steve Sells, I apologize for getting bent with you.

Edited May 22, 2009 by steve sells
Formatting

[arftist]

I would like to suggest a few ideas to keep the transfer of mis-information to a minimum.

2. Please be aware there are a LOT of highly experienced, professional metalworking people who visit here. They can spot BS a mile away.
3. If you post BS, expect to be politely challenged almost immediately.

This being the case, is this forum not already self-regulating?

An almost impossible to initiate system of ranking of knowledge seems unessasary.

If it works, don't fix it.

I visit this forum as often as possible. It is one of two I regularly visit. The other site deals with alternate energy. Similar strugles ensue there as well, though for the most part this site is more civil. This is a testament to the moral fortitude of Glenn and the team of moderators. Some of us are naturaly genteel, others must learn to behave in a socialy acceptable manner in a new society(which the internet is).

I have paid the price of this learning in the form of remorse and embarrasment from a hasty or poorly considered post, and now hope to be considered an "elder statesman", contributing knowledge and staying above the fray. I have very important reasons for my anonimity on this site, which I will patiently explain them to anyone in a PM, as to do so here publicly would embarrass at least one prominent member needlessly.

If a ranking system is initiated, I will continue to post educated solutions to enquirys, but will not submit to a ranking or pecking order, and if banned, it will only result in the loss of my contibutions, gleaned from generations of my predesesors.

[Steve Sells]

Speaking as a staff member, we do not ban members as long as we have other options. Even when they insult staff or keep repeating the same question in the same thread, even after it was answered. Repeatedly.

I personally offered to be one of those that help correct typos, and sorts posts, as I make so many mistakes myself I understand the embarrassment of seeing it later, and not being able to correct it due to the edit time expired.

We do try to inform a member of any problems privately. But a very small portion lately have refused to read or respond to the PM's from staff, So we tried Email, one offender even had their preferences set to no mail from admin! (I think that option has been removed now) so when we make a public post in hope of correcting a problem, it does stir the waters a bit, but our only other option is removing the offender until they do reply to our Email.

Maybe we could forgo the public "last chance" warning, so others don't have to read a possible embarrassment of another person. But I prefer to be a target of complaints, than risk losing a member that may one day be a valued poster. I had thought that less embarrassing than having the log-in banned until they reply to an Email?

We all were new at one time, and I sure asked my share of strange questions as well when I started, including asking how I could make a sword my first day but 5 years later I did, and still am.

I still don't have all the answers, this thread I thought, was a good way to explore options of dealing with problems, we cant just pretend they dont exist.

[philip in china]

I was recently suspended for doing something silly- realistically for having not read the rules. I didn't realise what I had done was a breach of them. Frankly I deserved it.

I know sometimes my sense of humour is not always understood! One thing I would say is if ever anybody doesn't like what I have posted by all means tell me. So as not to clutter up the forums though this is often better done by PM. I think the PM facility could often be used far more effectively than it is.

[Quenchcrack]

We appear to beconfusing "asking dumb questions" with "giving nonsense answers" again. Nobody has advocated any kind of restrictions on asking questions. When a new person (I detest the terms "noob" or "newbie"; they are condecending) asks a question, they are seeking to understand our world; we want to make reasonable effort to give them good information. Flippant, ranting or just wrong answers are dangerous. They can destroy the enthusiasm of new smiths and at worst, they can lead to physical harm. I am frankly amazed this thread went on so long. Mostly, we appear to agree but from slightly differning perspectives. That's good. Diversity is what makes life interesting. We just need to be cognizant of the impact of what we post when a new person is asking questions. Maybe we can all be part of the vetting process and when we read a questionable post, we can sic Steve on them. Sorry, just kidding.

[nelson]

Hi Robert,
This thread is great in my opinion for many reasons, but here are two that come to mind:
1) A problem is addressed to find a friendly solution
2) The dynamics generated from this thread is very healthy for the site.
Although we may not entirely agree on some aspects, bringing up that issue or any other controversial one, enhances comunication, an important support of any relationship, as IFI may be considered a social group, a family where we interact in a virtual manner.
Other related sites, lack this sort of interaction, so in my opinion is like having a bad circulation you know, blood does barely move, little oxygen, and much apathy takes over till the site becomes dull, boring! Cheers, we`re discussing in a respectful way, sometimes the heat of the conversation takes on, but that`s great! This is all positive, and ads a little constructive spice to the forum.

Edited May 22, 2009 by nelson

[Ted T]

Just another angle to this discussion
Safety for blacksmiths is my main concern at this time in life.
Safety should not to be minimized no matter what, and always error on the side of safety.

I believe then when a response is given that is thought to be un-safe, I feel it is the moral obligation of every member who recognizes the dangers involved to step up to the plate and correct the in-accuracy.

I also believe it is important to keep in mind that it is ok to attack the concept, situation or opinion, but never the person.

[Finnr]

BINGO !!! Ted Excellent point.
Finnr

[Cross Pein]

Should a person post information that is perceived to be un-safe to use, or does not understand the potential consequences of their given opinion that has to do with safety issues, it needs to be addressed and corrected ASAP by those who do understand.
Process:
a. The responder who is making a correction about safety should explain (in measurable and definable terms) as to why the information is a safety issue.
b. The person making the questionable safety statement should be advised that they need to be more aware of what they said. And that is because it may un-intentionally cause injury or death to someone that doesn

[Glenn]

Two posts have been deleted as both belonged in another thread already in progress. This thread was closed to additional posting until I could review the material.

Arftist, I see no way to test a member (we have members in over 50 world wide countries) on his or her blacksmithing ability or knowledge in order to place a label on them. Those with good ability and information will show that value in their posts. Artfist, you are a gentleman and I would expect no less from any other member. The site guide lines are in place only to keep IForgeIron a family forum and a comfortable place for all to visit.

As Ted stated, safety is always first. Better yet just reread his entire post. (Thanks Ted).

We still need to realign to north and concentrate of now to improve the IForgeIron experience for the new member. There may not be a *right* answer but discussing the problem will give us some ideas to consider.

[philip in china]

Ted, (and others) I am not a lawyer but.... I wonder what would be the legal position if I posted something here which was wrong and unsafe and somebody, relying on my advice, got injured. Would I be liable in damages? I suspect not but wouldn't like to have to argue the point in court! I remember a post on here (I think) about a guy starting to "play" with thermite. There are lots of other seriously dangerous techniques that people see on the internet and fancy trying. I sent a terse reply to the moderator on another site when our thermiteer went there for advice. The mod. there just copied and pasted my reply which was, actually quite rude, but certainly made the point.

Don't play with dangerous things and for goodness sake if you don't know what you are talking about then keep stum!

"It is better to be quite and have folks think you are a fool than to open your mouth and leave no doubt".

[heyyou910]

And yet from another angle, being considerate of others posts. Many times I have felt stepped on and corrected. As I made my first posts, the questions were genuine. I didn't make them to be sent somewhere else or be trivialized. They were important to me at that time because that is all I knew. Then as I progressed a little, and wanting to help give some back, I'm sure I gave some incorrect advice at some point that I truly felt was correct. I'm sure I didn't do it so that some more experienced person could belittle my answer with his. This rarely encouraged me to answer more. Now as an advanced blacksmith, I am more able to recognize when a younger reply is not quite correct and I try to be encouraging while corrective and not be insulting in my replies.
Gobbler

Exactly...well said

[Lysdexik]

I have read about three pages of this thread, and at the risk of "comeing out" as a computer illiterate, I will ask the question. How do I search for previous threads on a subject? It took me the best part of a month to get comfortable with GOOGLE, so internal search engines are more of a mistery than smithing! I agree with the original post of this thread - with a couple of reservations - most of the time I don't know whether the question I ask is valid or not, thats why I ask. The safety issue is another matter. Anytime I am doing something that is unwittingly unsafe (like checking the temperature of a fire, useing the mercury thermometer you just made from a piece of galvenized pipe) I WANT TO KNOW! But the inability of the current world to accept responsibility for an individuals own actions is rediculous. If I go to my workshop and cut off a thumb on my tablesaw, thats MY fault, not the saw maker. If your head tells you that it's unsafe, believe your head. God put personal OSHA in all of us, listen to your internal watchdog, he's on your side. And as a kind of footnote, QC, Frosty, Glen & nearly everybody who has ever replied to one of my questions has made the information understandable and available, I thank all of you.
Hookie......