John Martin Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) -Don't know if this should go with the "Dividing Workshop Space" thread or not. This will obviously depend on what kind of work you will be doing, but how big is big enough for a two person shop, that won't be doing large gates and items like that. The two people will be doing different work. One will be bladesmithing, while the other will be doing mainly artistic stuff, trinkets, small tables, small gates, blacksmith tools. The shop will have a clean room, for finishing and for tools/machines that need to stay away from the grit of the forging area. Does anyone share a shop with someone or forge with another person that could chime in? My friend and I were thinking 24x24 or 24x18. Is that to big? To small? We are gonna save up this summer and split the cost to buy one of those DIY kits. It is easily affordable if we both save up this summer. Also, this will be 20 feet from a river. The area for the shop has also been elevated 3ft. Higher than our record flood heights this summer. Will rust be a problem? So if anyone could chime in and give some advice about this it would be appreciated. Mods if this is in the wrong place please move it. Edited May 18, 2009 by m_brothers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Is the clean room going to be included in this footprint? If so, how much space is it going to take off your forging area? I would think that its best to go for the largest shop you can reasonably afford as there is one rule - there is NEVER enough space. Remember, you will need storage for stock, all those half finished articles (and there are always LOTS of those) and finished articles. As for the rust. Is the area prone to fogs off the river? If so then rusting will be a problem unless you keep the shop a bit warmer than outside, above the dew point. Is the shop going to be insulated. If so, its quite easy to keep the fog out and the temperature a bit up. Is the floor going straight onto the ground. If so, is there some welldrained rubble under the surface? This will be essential to lower the relative humidity of the shop. If this gets too high during the day you will not notice BUT, if the temperature drops at night below the dew point then condensation on your gear will result causing rust. These are all questions we ask for building backyard astronomical observatories for the same reasons. Cheers Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Yes, it'll be inside the shop. I'm thinkg taking 8ft, and having a 8x16 or 8x24 space. Concrete on top of pea gravel. Never get any fog hardly. Sure there is a day or two during the year. Stock will be stored in the eaves of the ceiling. Propane forges as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 The forges will put lots of water vapour into the shop no matter what type they are. The by products of compustion are mainly carbon dioxide and water so ventillation will be vital to remove this moisture. If the shop is insulated then a small extraction fan will do most of the work in the evening then that is turned off and a small light globe/heater ran to keep the temperature above the dew point. I think I would try the insulation and exhaust fan first and see if you ever have to go to the next level of the heater. Most observatories are only ever vented and insulated and they have some really delicate instruments in them. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondacker Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I recently when and spent a weekend with a blacksmith and observered how his shop was layed out. His forge was in one corner and postitioned so that outside light from the doorway was blocked, so he could see the fire better, as you stood facing the forge, the anvil was to your right ( distant to anvil and forge was the lenght of your arms streched finger tip to finger tip away) to the rear of forge was the vise same distant measurment. on the wall to the left and also behind was the tool rack and bench all within easy reach. Between the forge and the anvil there was enough room to easly get to his layout table. This arrangement was about ten feet square, the total of the shop layout was about 16 ft wide and 30 ft long with ceiling height of about 12 ft. on one side of the shop was a fairly large door that went out into a material storage area with large opening facing out to get merteral in and out easy. From the sounds of what you are thinking of building would seem a good place to start and if done right you can if need be add on without to much problem. I like my building to blend into one another, I'm going to build this summer on to my garage a 10x12 welding shop Can't go any bigger will be in the way of sawmill area but it will match the roof line of the garage as well as the style. Adirondacker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Falcon 72 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Take a look at Randy Mcdaniel's shopStudio & Equipment He does a lot of different work. It should give you some ideas of the distances involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 16x24 is the planned size of my shop. Should have plenty of room (for now). Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I will say you can never have too much shop. You can always find something to fill it. My house came with a detached 30x50 block building with a 13x50 wooden addition all with concrete floors. That is 2150 sqft. (Bigger than my house ) It seemed huge at first. Now I am thinking off adding on all the time. (I need more storage) You will always use what you have and want more. My friend has a garden home with a single car garage which he uses for his shop, and he gets more done than I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubiack Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I would get the bigger of the two sizes that you listed. I have a good friend that put up one of the 24x24 building kits and it is a nice size. I think the 24x18 building will get too small pretty quickly. I agree with what the others have said get the biggest building that you can afford. I am trying to make the same decision on my shop whether to divide the space or not. I will be doing, as DCL suggested, and make cardboard templates of all of my tools and play with the arrangement before making my final decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Simple answer: As big as you can afford, laid out in an efficient manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Roy Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I've been working in a 12'X20' wood frame shed for a few years. I have just started building a new 20'X24' shop. It soon won't be big enough but that's what I can afford now. I don't do big projects but I have so much stuff that I don't have much room for layout and assembly. More room will allow bigger projects which will take up all the space and I will need a bigger shop. Does it ever stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Go to an office supply and get one of the desk pads that is grided off like graph paper. Cut out scale templates of equipment and people and place them on a scaled drawing of the shop sizes to see what you need. I've done this in an industrial enviornment to convince management about the size and location of equiplment in a new laboratory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) Modeling on graph paper is the best way to go about laying things out. Once you have what you like you can go to a parking lot with a snapline and some full sized cardboard mockups of anything that you're not sure about. On the other hand if you have Google Sketchup loaded on your computer you can model it in 3D and even take walk around tours. Oh yeah, as large as you can afford, as many power outlets as you can afford and the best lighting you can afford. Garage door, you'll really REALLY want an overhead door. A few windows, wall space is valuable but a few windows are good for light and ventilation. Heat, you'll probably want heat too. Can you use a barrel stove? They make outstanding shop stoves, a quick hot fire and let it go out as your forge takes over. Frosty Edited May 18, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 even tho I used my cad fror layout, working heavy construction I am used to blue prints, and the size space it represents, most people do not so use what works, to assist my wife I used tiny white flags, and marking paint for the lay out in the location before I built the shop so she could see and have some input Even the forge and work tables. If you don't want to mark the ground, a rope works well also cardboard boxes for the forge, press or what have you. Move them around , a empty box moves easier than a press does :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Well, this is our current pricing for a completed shop. 24x24 Total: 1800 - - - 24x16 Total: 1400 Cut each price in half and that is what each of us will pay. We are really looking at the 24x16 size. Cheaper and plenty of room if laid out well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 24x24 @ $3.13/sqft and 24x16 @3.64/sqft. That would be 50% more shop for 30% more money. If you ever think you will need the space it is cheaper and easier to do it now. But you have to do what money permits. Are you factoring in storage? I mean not just for normal stock but for those "it followed me home" things? By the way both prices would be a good deal for this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 For another $200 each I'd go for the larger building. An important factor though is how long it'll take you to come up with the money. Expect prices to continue going up unfortunately so move soonest. I'm happy and excited for you John, you're going to LOVE having a real shop of your own. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Ameling Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 The foot print of my "shop" (a very charitable description) is 15 x 18 feet. Of that I only really use an area about 9x10 for forging. The rest is mostly "storage". But my "shop" is just 6 sheets of old roofing tin nailed to some scrap 2x4's held up by a couple posts setting on the ground, and with plastic tarps coming down the sides mostly to the ground. It keeps the rain off, and the snow out - mostly. But I've also got less than a hundred bucks in it. I don't know what I'd do in a REAL shop? 24x18 for 1400 or 24x24 for 1800? The best advice I could give is to scratch up that extra 200 each and go with the bigger building. In the end you will be far happier with the extra room. The "hard part" of a shop building is keeping the ... storage ... usage under control. Stuff just accumulates. And the creeping loss of usable floor space is hard to notice/realize. Steel materials storage above in the rafters is nice, but requires more planning. As in the extra STRENGTH of the roof system to handle the added weight. And the problems with access to it - first to haul it in and get it up there, and then to get pieces back down to use. Plan for a "short stock" storage area right away - for those cut-offs, odd lengths, and scraps. It is very hard to throw them away for most normal blacksmiths. But you also don't need them under your feet while working. So I would echo what others have said. Build as big as you can for the money you have on hand - and bigger if possible to arrange. Available "space" gets et up faster than common bar stock. Just a few humble thoughts to share. Take them as such. Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands p.s. If you can, think about where/how an addition to your shop might be built right now before you start the main shop. A good spot for the main shop might be better shifted a few feet to one side when it comes time to put an addition on - such as a lean-to along one side. p.p.s. Also look into what it might cost to extend the roof/rafters out a couple feet to the sides. Extending them out 4 to 6 feet gives you a lot of "outside" storage. Like, for example, a wall-mounted steel storage rack under roof, and with a plastic drop tarp to protect it from the weather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Good advise Mike. By the way that is one of my favorite quotes! ( your signature line ) Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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