Smithy rebuild after fire

[urnesBeast]

I am planning the smithy rebuild after my fire. The short of the plan from contractor:
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1. Permit stuff
2. Fire clean up stuff
3. concrete slab

a. all necesary prep work

b. metal rebarb

c. frame 2'x2' box out of 3/4" foam board for powerhammer slab

d. pour 6" concrete slab

e. smooth finish on floor

f. pour 2'x2' box for powerhammer

4. Frame 10'x28' wood structure

a. 2x4 wood walls

b. 2x8 wood roof frame

c. 1/2" texture 111 sheathing

d. 5/8 plywood on roof

e. install 4- windows

f. install double 36" steel door

5. Roof

a. install ice and water barrier

b. install 15lb. felt paper

c. install aluminum drip edge

d. install roof shingles (match shingles on house)

e. install cobra vent

f. install ridge cap

6. Electrical

a. Install 60 amp sub panel

b. install main disconect at door

c. install outlets across back wall

d. install 3 exterior lights to be switched from house

e. all finish electrical devices and plates

f. Install 4- 6' flourecent lights

7.Insulation

a. insulate walls to MA code

b. insulate cieling to MA code

c. install fire rated caulking in all vertical holes

8. Sheetrock and mud+ tape

a. install sheetrock on all walls and cieling

b. mud and tape all seams

c. fill all screw holes with mud (joint compound)

9. Finish carpentry

a. install 2 1/2" colonial casing around all windows and doors

b. install 3 1/2" base molding at base of all walls

10. Clean up

a. all job related trash will be removed from site

b. all tools will be removed from site

c. job site will be broom swept clean

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I get a solid feeling about this contractor. The other bidders proved themselves to be disreputable/unreliable/undesirable very quickly. I like this guy. Answers his phone, returns calls, and has been very specific that communication is important in doing this.

Some of the features I like in the building:

• Thick cement floor- these do not burn so easy... (decided against dirt because I might want this too be for woodworking in the future)
• Drywall eight feet up- this does not burn so easy...
• A ridiculous amount of electrical outlets, all turned off by one master "Frankenstein switch" Pretty mush said "just tell me how many and where"
• I will leave a few always on electrical outlets for the heating pad to keep slack tub from freezing
• We will leave a few areas of the floor thicker and vibration isolated for anvil and future power hammer.
• Double door, big enough for big stuff.
• One wall long enough for full length stock
• Door in right place to get full length stock in from driveway easily
• Enough room to flip over a 10" bar inside
  

Now is the time to think about things that can be done to make the smithy better. The contractor is very open to doing other reasonable things that are not on the list. I am reasonable with him, he is with me.

Are one south facing window, three west facing windows and a double door enough natural light?

Do I want the forge near the double door?

A second door away from the other?

[Charlotte]

One thing that is missing is your location.

South facing window? Not in Louisana. Natural Light = North facing
How about some Solar tubes to bring light into the shop from the roof. The domes that catch light and reflect it straight down to a diffuser. I'm a foe of artificial light where I'm working if I can get natural light. A second "man door" certainly.

I don't count doors a light because there are too many times when an open door can interferr with you work. Think about ventilation.

[urnesBeast]

Charlotte,

I am in Boston. Only the west side is not within 5-8 foot of a stockade fence. Thankfully, the west is where the light is coming from during my hours.

The second "man" door is a possibility. I will just have to purchase it since we have already agreed on a price for the building. I would put that on the side.

Skylights are right out for reliability and leakage. Those solar tubes look more reliable. Any idea on price? They don't come out and tell you on their site, so I suspect $$$$

[solvarr]

Unless I am missing something won't you want more than 60 amp to run a decent stick welder?

[Steve Sells]

As an Electrician, I can state you won't save more than a few $$ by going with only a 60 amp panel. A 100 amp panel base price is about the same. And in case you wondered, it will NOT draw 100 from the main panel in home unless you are using 100 amp at that time, but it is there for future needs.

I need to add 6ft lights are a pain to find many times, even as a contractor, I gave up looking for them and replaced mine with 8th H.O/cold start. The 4ft or 8ft are the most readily available.

Edited May 6, 2009 by steve sells
addition

[Glenn]

I would suggest a 220v outlet next to each door (for the welder) and other outlets where ever heavy power would be needed. You may want to consider over head power outlets where work zones apply, such as over a work table, over stationary machines etc. You can not trip and fall on electric cords that go up.

A breaker box would be great for both the master off switch as well as running specific electric circuits to specific machines. Do NOT put the heavy electric use machines and the lights on the same circuit. Split the lights between at least two circuits. That way if you throw a breaker, you still have some light to see to move around, or see to repair any problem.

In Boston area, you may want to look into using water pipe to heat the floor. Laying the pipe down during construction is no big issue, you can always leave it unhooked and unused. Dealing with a cold floor is rough.

Enjoy your shop, when is the grand opening and house warming party? (grin)

[Charlotte]

Charlotte,

....Skylights are right out for reliability and leakage. Those solar tubes look more reliable. Any idea on price? They don't come out and tell you on their site, so I suspect $$$$

I haven't price them in a while. They do hold up well to wind and rain in this area. Hurricanes have a habit to taking out anything that is a poorly designed.

There are a couple of different versions of the Solar tube. Prices I think depend on the local dealer. More people are using them because they provide light with out heat/cold load and save on electricity.

[Rob Browne]

Maybe rethink the skylights. We have them in our house and get LOTS of heavy winds and rain and they are great if properly installed. Nice diffuse natural light for nothing.

[Drewed]

I'd double up on the doors for cross ventalation. I'd also think about 2x6 walls ( more insulation ) and if you can afford it, cement board is about 1000x more fire proof than drywall. Also see if they can cover the walls all the way to the rafters, that will leave no flat spots (top of walls ) for dust/dirt/sparks/ to land.

Then again it is always easier to spend other people's money! :)

[Frosty]

When you say a 2' x 2' styrofoam box for the powerhammer foundation I suggest you NOT leave the foam in place when you pour the foundation. The stuff is strong but not indestructible on several fronts:

First it's NOT fireproof, every bit of hot scale, etc. that hits it will melt right in and eventually it'll be a 2" gap.

Second vibration from the hammer will break it down and it'll become thinner allowing the hammer to shift.

I'd form the box from sub-grade treated plywood and leave it in place when pouring the foundation.

I'd also make the foundation about 26" x 40" just in case you run into a deal on something like a 50# L. I found one for reasonable so your chances are a whole lot better.

Bigger service panel for sure.

Either 4' or 8' cold start flourescents. If you can go with 220v flourescents for long term economy they use less power and have longer life.

I'm excited for you.

Frosty

[Steve Sells]

how did you Figure less power? The Tubes themselves don't care what power factor the ballast gets, only what is delivered to them after the ballast.

240 volts at 5 amps is the same power as 120 volts at 10 amps, its still 1200 watts aka Volt/Amps. Main reason in industry, is more ballasts per 20 or 30 amp light circuit at 240 than only half that amount of light circuits for 120 volts ballasts for the relay's to run .

[Bentiron1946]

You going to have a hose bibb out there to fill you slack tub with?

[Dragons lair]

My shop is 18X34(TOO SMALL) Spray foam insulation walls and roof. 200amp service(never enough pwr/outlets) course I have 4
welders CNC plasma table, mill drill, saws,blowers,heaters and lord
knows what else. Figure out what you need then triple it. Have added a 10X16 and still trip over everything. Add 4 anvils 2 post vises 1foot vise 2 gassers 1rivet forge and a power shear to above.
Size matters. Best of luck.
Ken Former Conn Yankee

[Frosty]

how did you Figure less power? The Tubes themselves don't care what power factor the ballast gets, only what is delivered to them after the ballast.

240 volts at 5 amps is the same power as 120 volts at 10 amps, its still 1200 watts aka Volt/Amps. Main reason in industry, is more ballasts per 20 or 30 amp light circuit at 240 than only half that amount of light circuits for 120 volts ballasts for the relay's to run .

No experience myself, repeating what I've been told more than once. I did get the impression it was a lumen per watt advantage but . . .

I'm hiding my bubbles till you put your pin away Steve.

Best to have the real info, thanks for the correction.

Frosty

[urnesBeast]

Everyone,

I will be printing this thread and discussing with the contractor. These are exactly the kind of things I was curious about.

Lighting: I just went to homeDepot.com, I could not find 6' bulbs! So, we do need to go with something different. I will look into solar tubes and skylights.

The hose bib: I have hot and cold taps at the house right near the shed. My father is a plumber. The way the land is, getting water in would be a real pain to get below the frost line, and drainage near on impossible. Likely solution, run two hoses the 15 feet into a little utility tub that drains onto the ground.

As for the power: The contractor is also a hobby hot rod builder. He totally "gets it" with respect to power needs. He was advocating 220 and big amperage out there. I suspect it is but an oversight on the call-out. He is a reasonable guy, not trying to cut corners on me.

Keep coming with the tips, I have a "sign off" in a few days. Then we get started.

Thanks,
Doug

[brian.pierson]

Not meaning to hijack the thread but I have a question about flooring thickness in a smithy.

I am working on pricing out a smithy at my brother's house. He has the land to build it on. We were talking about how thick the floor needed to be under the forge and under the anvil. I have a 350 lb Fisher on a 2 foot oak cube so roughly 450 to 500 ish lbs when in one place. Should I double the thickness in the area to accommodate it? The forge itself will be a angle iron frame with a centaur forge vulcan firepot and hand crank blower. I just got the pot this week so need to have it welded up. I plan on using a firebrick bed in the forge on top of the metal bed. He would like a brick forge but I don't think that is in our budget. How thick would we need the floor to be if that was built in the future? This is in central Indiana.

Thanks for any comments or advice. This thread already has given me a lot of food for thought.

Brian

[Frosty]

How large is the shop going to be and what do you plan on doing in it?

If you're only doing hand work a 4" slab will probably do, the heavier the anvil the more energy it reflects back through the work so the less impact the floor takes. The static weight is inconsequential, you're putting more psi on the ground than your anvil and block.

If you're planning on getting a power hammer sometime then you'll need a beefier floor, 6" min. or better yet an isolated foundation block for the hammer.

If you want to safely overkill a small scale shop 6" should do it nicely.

Frosty

[brian.pierson]

Frosty,

We are thinking 8 by 16 to 10 by 20. We were thinking a 6 inch slab from the beginning. I do have experience in concrete work and form set up. Engineering a pour and the thickness is what I lack experience in except a few sidewalks. That is why I was asking about thickness for needed for the given weight load of a brick hearth and chimney. I don't think we will get fancy with different thickness within the pour except for the possible PW area.

A power hammer is possible in the future so we were thinking of leaving a hole in the concrete for an isolation block. The hole will get filled to the top with gravel so there is no tripping issue. I know it is going to be a rough guess where we want it. We are working that out by laying out the known equipment and moving it all around on the floor plan. I guess I have watched too much HGTV home shows LOL. If we get a PW then we can drop the depth of the hole to what we need and rebar/pour to fill. I have used the fiber sheathing that goes under the siding of a house for forming out an isolation line. Usually as a slab to slab iso for side walks, where it is the dividing line. This helps prevent a slab from cracking as it settles as well as expansion/shrinking from local weather conditions. I like this better than normal ply or foam as it compresses better than ply and is not fragile as foam.

Thanks again all,

This place is great.

Brian

[Frosty]

Brian:

I don't know what you mean by PW area.

In any construction the two most important things are the foundation and the roof with the foundation being #1. This is about the foundation of course and the first thing to do is make sure the base is right.

It won't make a lot of difference how well you design and make the footings and slab if the base shifts. If you have the base right a 6" slab is going to support anything you're likely to put on it up to and including a D9 Cat.

The exception is live loads like a power hammer. In some cases power hammers have been known to beat themselves through a concrete slab. I suspect they were 4" "domestic garage" slabs on minimum spec compacted bases. Bob Bergman of the Postville Blacksmith shop, runs his hammers on timbers on a 6" slab, an OLD slab at that. When I visited in 06 his shop hammers were a Nazel 3B (300lb+ tup weight) and a 200lb Bradley Helve. Both had been running in place for years and there was no sign of damage to the slab.

What that tells me is if you design and compact the base properly and use a good concrete mix design and maybe a little extra rebar a person shouldn't have to worry about a moderate weight power hammer.

A masonry forge and 1/4 ton of anvil? I wouldn't give them a second thought. Think about parking a pickup truck in a garage and how much weight is resting on each tire on a 4" wire mesh reinforced slab. Not a problem.

Frosty

[Steve Sells]

I used 4500 mix, rather than a normal 3500 PSI mix. 5/8 rebar on a 3 ft grid. Poured about 6 inches thick, on compacted paving gravel. I also added 8 inch pilings 5 ft down.

Why? I live near a river (3 actually) so for the extra $230 I paid for all of this extra stuff ( I say extra because the Building Dept said a 4 inch mono-slab was plenty) I have peace of mind for the high water table and possible flooding. And less likely to have any trouble from having an electrician do the foundation work (thats me:D) I didn't worry about a Power Hammer as I cant have one here unless they start to make them very quiet and have NO vibrations.

I can not add that extra support later for that little amount of money. I figure I am 46, and doing it this way I am good for this lifetime free of cracking and settling.

[brian.pierson]

Frosty,

Sorry that should have been PH for power hammer

[Frosty]

That makes sense now. PW is usually the abbreviation for Peter Wright and you said you had a Fisher. My head started spinning and if I hadn't gotten right to writing I would still be wandering lost in the woods.

For a sparky you done pretty good Steve. I spent 19 years working for the state geology section, drilling for Bridges and Foundations and a couple years before that in the materials lab so I have lots of experience with foundations, good ones and the failures. We spent a whole lot more time on the failures of course, most of which could've been successful if a little common sense had been applied in the first place but . . . Oh well.

Frosty