bquinner Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 Hi, Is anyone using one of these, I got an earlier version from a school (DS230 Chip Forge) last month and I highly recommend them.Gas Forges: Metal & Heat Treatment Equipment: Flamefast Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 How is it for welding up billets? (or what do you recommend them *for*?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) Welcome aboard Brian, glad to have you. I'm guessing you're in Europe somewhere, probably England. Chip forges aren't very common in the USA. I've been intrigued with the idea as was (is?) Mike Porter. We were both kicking around possible designs for home built versions and I think he's made a couple test models. For you guys who aren't familiar, a chip bed forge uses a gas flame forced up through a bed of refractory chips. The chips are heated and any stock inserted in the chips is then heated. They are pretty darned efficient as you are only heating a small quantity of refractory, typically a couple lbs or so. These transfer heat to the stock largely by conductance rather than radiation so heat transfer is much faster and more efficient. If you'll click "User CP" at the top of the page and edit your profile to show your location it'll make a big difference. IFI is represented by members from more than 50 countries and a lot of info is location specific. Frosty Edited March 24, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bquinner Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 These forges are very quiet and heat up quickly, I usually only have an hour or two a week to mess around so having a forge I can just switch on and off is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimenickel Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 is it like a fluidizing bed ? interesting link. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I've tried one of these and don't like it much. It may be the way it is set up - in a School using natural gas - but I found I couldn't get up to welding temps with it. As a newbie I'm no real judge but the (well respected) Smith on my training course said they're c**p! :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeatGuy Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Today I built a ceramic chip forge and thought that people might like to hear of the results. Now this forge is by no means a forge that I would use for day to day operations as it was assembled, mostly, as a proof of concept. A piece of 8x8x4 hss with a tapered bottom, a 160 cfm blower and a nozzel with a 1/16 in orffice. I filled this with broken ceramic stud welding ferules. The forge heats up quickly although I found it difficult to judge wether the mixture was correct. This turned out to be a bust. The ferules melted into a large glassy lump not unlike clinkers which form in coal forges. Unlike coal forges these clinkers block the fuel/air supply and cause rather unexpected backfires. On to plan two ... new ferrules. For some reason we have an abundate supply of 1/4 ferrule which we have never used. So we refilled the forge with new ferrules and restarted the forge. This was also a bust but it took much longer for the medium to fail. Not to be one to give up so easily I tried rocks ... on the behest of one of my co-workers. These lasted even longer but in the end they also melted. Upon inspection I found that not all of the rocks melted. I believe that the mica melted out of the granite to form the blob. Tomorrow I will try basalt since it is relatively homogenious in nature I feel it may actually hold up to the heat. My initial of this type of forge is: it "feels" sort of like a coal forge but with convienice of gas. Stock is heated very locally and supprisingly quickly. I think that it warrents more investigation. pictures to come brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Brad: Try adjusting the air gas mix to burn rich. That way all the combustion won't take place under the chips and melt them. Other wise you will need to find a source of refractory rated for greater than 3,200f and make your own chips. OR order a bag from Flamefast. What you describe happened to another fellow who built one with a naturally aspirated burner and used 3,000f kiln shelf to build a grate. He also used 3,000f refractory to make chips. Melted it all after a short time. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisB Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Found this with a quick google search.Chip forge V's Regular forge - British Blades :: Custom Knife Making Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Found this with a quick google search.Chip forge V's Regular forge - British Blades :: Custom Knife Making I have to agree with this comment:"The down side to these forges is that the large exposed glowing mass of ceramic is VERY hot to work near" I was sweating buckets when I used one! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 We cleaned out the forge at work last week and replaced the chips with a fresh batch: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I'm quite interested in this type of forge but in now way willing to afford one. I'd like some sketch of the physical layout of the componets. My idea was to use petroleum coke as a media. it is relatively light, and doesn't burn itself unless heated with a forced blast. The only people that I've known to use it in a forge, soak the pet coke in used motor oil before trying to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 That'll be entertaining to watch Charlotte, please have someone video tape it. PLEASE. And do it outside. If you'll click "User CP" at the top of the page and edit your profile to show your location it'll make a big difference. IFI is represented by members from more than 50 countries and a lot of info is location specific. All kidding aside, using petroleum coke in a ceramic chip bed forge isn't going to work. Just because guys have trouble lighting it in their forge doesn't mean it won't burn, especially if you're subjecting it to 2,700f+ flame. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) That'll be entertaining to watch Charlotte, please have someone video tape it. PLEASE. And do it outside. If you'll click "User CP" at the top of the page and edit your profile to show your location it'll make a big difference. IFI is represented by members from more than 50 countries and a lot of info is location specific. All kidding aside, using petroleum coke in a ceramic chip bed forge isn't going to work. Just because guys have trouble lighting it in their forge doesn't mean it won't burn, especially if you're subjecting it to 2,700f+ flame. Frosty The experiment that we( the group I belonged) did with straight pet coke, in a coal forge, found that it would only burn in an excess of oxygen. We could get white heat in the forge, our demonstrator described it as slinging hot, but couldn't weld because of oxidation. My own expriments in a "two brick" style propane forge were to reduce the oxidation of mild steel at welding heat. The pieces would gradualy erode but made a mess with dripping flux. I wound up digging a mixute of coke, flux and hard brick out of the bottom of my forge. I guess location is important in that I pick up pet coke along side the railroad right away after if falls off the hopper cars leaving the refinery. I wanted to know the design of the chip forge because the websites do not provide any drawings. I've been toying with this idea for a while. One of my thoughts was to use high temp insulating fire brick dipped in mortar and dried. Since insulating brick can be cut with an old hacksaw blade, making small pieces would be messy but not difficult. A coarse layer of brick on the bottom to support pet coke on top and prevent the coke fines from restricting the flow of gas. Normally I prefer the simplicity, and relative safety, of atmospheric burners but I have a hybrid design with regeneration that combines some of the characteristcs of both. My question is how much static pressure is needed to operate the chip forge and how are the parts arranged to minimize. The static pressure. (incidentaly before any one asks, No, I will not be providing any details of my hybrid design. I have had rather unfortunate experiences in the past when trying to walk people through burner design. Suffice it to say that the design that I use is safe for me because I have the time and experience to do the extensive hand tuning required. I will not be responsible even indirectly for someone burning up their shop or, God forbid, injuring themselves) Edited April 11, 2009 by Charlotte words left out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Tell you what. Share your burner design and I'll share the naturally aspirated burner chip bed forge design Mike Porter and I worked out together. The one test model I'm aware of melted 3,000f kiln shelf and the commercial refractory chips bought from Flamefast. As an added inducement, I won't bother you with trouble shooting, tuning, etc. questions. I promise. Regardless, please shoot some video of you using pet coke in a chip bed forge. I would REALLY like to see it. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Frosty, I haven't built the chip forge and you will be the first to get the pictures! The design of my burner is one that evolved "by hammer and hand" At the moment I'm trying to teach my self CAD drawing with TurboCAD. After I finish the two door grills that I'm working one a drawing of the hybrid burner design, and my notion of why it works the way it does, will be the next since you ask. I've always been better at building in three dimensions and making it up as I go along than drawing it up. Some how I'm better at knowing how to get there than explaining how to get there.:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Baiscly, I like the concept. I used a forge a friend of mine morfed into this concept, except his is still using a jet and burner fromthe top...He has a bunch of broken up refractory on th bottom. This heats up FAST and so does the steel... I'm not sure of the temp rating but maybe fake fireplace (gas log) refractory will work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) Have you tried Google Sketchup? Google SketchUp It's a free download, is reasonably easy and intuitive to use, nothing like AutoCad, TurboCad, DesignCad, etc. I have those and several others. Sketchup is my hands down favorite now for a number of reasons. First it has excellent tutorials and lessons. There is a HUGE library of components and other drawings available for free download. All kinds of things folk have drawn up and uploaded to share. It renders in 3D, can be dimensioned, changed, massaged, etc. with reasonable ease. Did I mention it's FREE? It might be helpful. Frosty Edited April 11, 2009 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I'd like some sketch of the physical layout of the componets. Not much to it by the look of it: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Any Idea of what the static pressure is on the air? Do you have a schematic of where the gas in injected? I was thinking of building one from AHH refactories. (I've go a factory distributor about 25 miles from me.) Thanks again Arbalist, Charlotte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbalist Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Hi Charlotte, I must admit I don't know the specs of the Flamefast but expect you can get them from their website? I did ask the guy who bought our one if you could adjust the gas/air pressure and he said no so I suppose it is set correctly at installation and is "non user adjustable"? I was hoping to "wang it up a bit" in the hope of getting a bit more heat out of it! Vic. Here's a pic of the complete forge in situ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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