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cheechwizard, love the anvil, and belt grinder.. What did you end up using for a motor? I know its from a treadmill, but what horse power? Max RPM?

BillyBones.. YT video? since this thread is really about hammer techniques. If you have a video link it might be useful to see.

Your eye on details and exactly what you want to accomplish is excellent.. Its the reason your work is as clean as it is.. Well done.. And correct, on hammer size, it depends on what you want to get done.. Thanks, I don't think about form anymore.. As to getting going: it is typical to open up (elongate) when hammering hard.. As Anvil says Nose to Toes in movement.. this opens the rib cage for more air intake and it acts as a recoil strategy for the body in full motion. As the needed impact gets smaller so does the body. or movement. If you can check out the josh Greenwood video and Hofi.. Its all really interesting.. Got to have a talk with Josh at the 2018 ABANA Conference. he over heard me talking with another smith about hammer technique and chimed in.. (((So I'll put this here: Every smith I have watched in a hammer swing when the metal is hot hits nearly identical. they hold the hammer nearly the same, they swing nearly the same).. (((The nuances of spring, hand grip, 1 finger 3 finges, pinky , etc, etc.. Doesn't start to be applied till the metal gets cold enough that there is spring back into the hammer))))) Hofi's method of holding the hammer and flexing the wrist is the only truly different technique as he does it all the same no matter the temperature of the metal.. Whether you are bent over or standing straight up.. Watch the swing of the hammer and grip and how the body is in motion.. You will see them with a full fist wrapped around the hammer until, they start to get some rebound at the colder temperatures.. Well unless they are welding .. But, this is a technique thing which has to do with getting the flux out and increasing the temp as the point of hammer impact.. (different topic really).. Many smiths who have been at it awhile will stand up straighter as time goes on.. Usually because of accidents not associated with smithing.. Both the guys I knew in their 80's worked at the anvil just like Francis or any farrier would.. https://video.unctv.org/video/folkways-fire-forge-blacksmithing/ Hobbyist today make up some of the largest percentage so getting in shape muscle wise is maybe the smartest thing one can do.. Here is a short video of one of the journeyman smiths, then the lead smith of the blacksmith at Williamburg, VA and then Jennifer Horn at the 2018 ABANA conference. https://youtu.be/DFxMfvhQwJ0 I thought i had some video taken of Mark A. but can't find it anywhere.. I have several thousand of folders from videos and stills and still have not figured out a great way of organizing them. What do they all have in common??????

Its what works for you.. that is all that is important.

Hofi has a video out on his method.. He shows holding of the hammer and such.. The largest problem with holding any hammer is it goes against the natural movement of the wrist.. Hofi holding method and useage of the hammer brings the wrist back into line with the correct movement.. This can lead to less wrist soreness, but it also changes the whole dynamic of the hammer swing and is the reason why his hammers were designed short, stout with short hammer handles.. He moves into weight vs velocity as the means for moving metal if looked at from simply a leverage ratio. CGL, I posted a video awhile back with hammer movement by Francis Whitaker, the video with me working on the chisel, The Hofi video and there is a video or 2 with Mark A (who stands perfectly straight at the anvil and does not bend over at all) I've seen him in person several times. And Josh Greenwood. You can look them up on YT and see for yourself how they swing hammers.. it can be confusing but again, It becomes your own style/rythym, etc, etc.. If you have been forging for awhile you would have started to make your own style and for the most part there are 3 different styles.. Old, new, and Hofi.. Old is what Francis Does, New is more in line with standing straight up (be it bad back, or knees or what have you) and Hofi.. Of course there are thousands of others but each of these 3 have the same things in common and sure it can be nit picked but its a waste of time. Each person has a particular way of swinging a hammer.. it's interesting to note.. That most or nearly all the old blacksmiths I have ever seen or worked with a swing the same way Francis Does. Or I do when warmed up.. Farriers are a different breed and swing a hammer like Old production blacksmiths.. AWesome sauce for sure. Anyhow, Watch the videos and check back.. Its interesting for sure and getting to work with these guys in person or in videos can lead to information that might be known to you , but just not understood in a way that can be put into words. In Realty I use all the methods of swinging a hammer. they are just used when the time is appropriate and there is no 1 right way. Also of note.. Any long time blacksmith have moved from traditional handle designs to a skinny handle (fits the hand and hand can close on it) with a longer handle that is skinny.. Most smiths that have been at it for 30 or more years also rarely use a hammer over3lbs and many are 1.5 to 2.5lbs with a very long thin handle.

See your all ready a hammering fool. One of the best forms of conditioning. Do you switch hands so both will become able to forge with?

It's one of the nice things about producing the videos.. It shows some stuff.. When I am forging for a while.. I mean when I am forging every day.. By the 3rd day I start to migrate into my natural swing rhythm and movement.. My hammer stroke is not from the elbow but from the whole arm and body in a circular, driving the hammer into the metal kind of motion. I like Hofi's take on it, but have never been one to implement his swing or lack of. I also can not use his type of hammer.. I smash my pinky as I have a tendency to work over the anvil and very much inline and close to it.

John McPherson to add more info to your post: European anvils (German, Czech, Swedish) had thick face plates.. some had plates up to 1.5" thick.. 1" seems to be standard... In the UK they seemed to get a little thinner and then in the USA they seemed to be between 3/4" for a large anvil to 3/8" for some standard production models like USA Trenton and the one with Arm and hammer on the side. Different makers have known problems.. Eagle anvils (fisher/norris) used W1 from what I was told and were very hard on the edges so one will see a lot of chipping on the edges of abused anvils.. Abuse is any hit with a hammer. intentional or otherwise. Trenton anvils of German make were very hard in the face and also suffered chipping on the corners.. By the way chipping of the corners was a rather large problem for all early anvil MFGs and there were many adverts with companies claiming they had fixed this. The American made trentons faired better.. Hay Budden had some material problems on the 3rd gen and I think they might have used a hardier steel mix.. From what I have seen the 1st gen with steeled wrought iron did pretty well as did the 2nd gen with crucialbe cast steel 2 piece designs though some wil show light corner cracks. It does seems that Peter Wright and Henry Wright used harder face plate materials so these can show some corner wear. Anyhow this could become it's own book.. Anvils today are actually softer than older ones unless you buy a Peddinghaus or a Refflinghaus.. These are some of the hardest anvils produced today both MFG in Germany and coming in about 59Rc.. Most other anvils are in the 55 range.. The softer the anvil the less corner chipping you will have and can be a safety margin. On high Rc faced anvils there are a bunch of problems that come in with missed strikes these lower Rc anvils don't have to worry about. One other factor that is rarely taken into consideration is the steel used in hammer faces.. Back in the day.. 0.60 to 0.80C was considered Hammer steel and can reach 60Rc.. Today 1040 or 1045 is considered hammer steel and can barely reach 55Rc and even with the best quench and maybe 58Rc it is a shallow hardening steel so will dent vs dent the anvil. My 5160 steel faced wrought iron comes in about 58Rc in the center and is hard enough to cause some serious carnage if I have a missed strike anywhere on either Peddinghaus or Refflinghaus. Not only with a chip of the anvil flying off but also of the hammer face coming apart in shrapnel. Usually when anvils are in really bad shape its from abuse.. But there is also Erosive wear.. Scale is very much an abrasive and if one produces enough hardware or forged item on the anvil and uses the same spots all the time it will erode the face of the anvil and you will see this.. The largest difference between cast steel anvils and wrought iron anvils is : Cast or forged Steel is not compressible... Wrought iron is compressible and is the reason why they sway.. Steel anvils will not sway in the face..

Marc you make good points for a beginner.. Longer handles vs shorter ones.. With this said.. There is nothing wrong with a shorter handle, just as there is nothing wrong with a longer handl. As I mentioned earlier there is a huge difference between what I can swing comfortably even at my level of shape (which I consider myself out of shape, but can swing the 4lbs all day long 6-8hrs non stop).. but still consider myself not in forging shape and I don't choke up.. With this said I do change hammers a bunch for general forge work for what ever hammer will offer me the blow or hammer strike I want. The key here is again common sense and do what feels responsive.. Again, I think this thread is geared towards beginners so again.. common sense and not moving up in weight or to long in handle length.. Ok, since this was brought up it is a good point to look at also.. handle length as a function of wrist over taxing. Or getting a tired wrist.. A tired wrist is a sure sign the hammer handle is to long and or the hammer is to heavy. Or both. When I move up to the 6lb I have no problem starting out and as I get tired I choke up on it till I get to tired and just switch to the smaller hammer.. the 6lbs hammer is still swung like a regular hammer.. (this would be tough on most peoples wrists). And goes back to the moving up slowly in hammer size till the hammer is just swung without notice. where this changes in how the hammer is swung is once I get past 6lbs.. then I move the hammer in more of a straight line from the elbow and shoulder and limit the stress on the wrist, nearly punching with the hammer vs swinging it. Basically or nearly straight up and down vs in an arc. This allows for a good hit but nearly takes all of the wrist stress out of it.. Wrists are pretty small and really unsupported even compared to the elbow or shoulder and increasing leverage through an over weighted hammer or to long a handle which is basically the same thing. Marc fitting or making a shoe is a specialized task vs general forge work. 30 years ago, I did not know one farrier that was good at making anything but a shoe.. Now there are many farriers who love to forge for fun so it's a different ball game..

thanks Charles.. It's funny.. I thought your sledge handles lengths would be right in that range.. I would think for most forging people that length is the length.. I went and measured my old sledge hammer handles yesterday and they were all between 20 and 22" From 6lbs up to 18lbs.. The general purpose sledge hammers had stock handles and lengths. but the double faced forging sledges all have the shorter handles. Our handle lengths for the rounding handle and my forging handle lengths are pretty close. I have moved a little bit longer on the forging handles on the lighter hammers.

There are coal sources in your area as is a local ABANA chapter or Local blacksmith group who has meetings. they will be able to offer you the best resources information. Someone here might know of the groups around. Few years ago I had spoken to someone in Indiana and they found a source locally or the coal.. Can't remember whom it was.. Coal for the most part is expensive to ship so is best to buy locally.

CGL, nice work. You are getting there and it's really nice to see you are swaging the spoon portion really well. that can be the toughtest part to do well. what are you using to do this with? I would suggest you look at a spoon you have in your kitchen at home and look at the bowl shape.. that bowl shape is a classic working shape and is very old.. Eventually they figured it out. (I don't know the date the spoon was fully developed but it was a long time ago). it was the fork that was slow to be developed.. Seems the knife was first, then spoon, then fork in it's modern form. It's funny to that the spatula was a slow to develop form and shape only being recently set as a spatula at least from the information I have found.

Marc, that really is the way to go. Few understand the use it or lose it kind of detail. I thought I was immune to it. 13 years off has shown me different. I'm 3 years out of retirement and I'm still having to get back in shape.. I start getting there by the end of demo season and just starting to feel I am getting back some forging ability and prowess, but then I go back to forging once a month and it fades away again. I can explain it. I can even show someone how to do it.. But it is not at a professional blacksmith level. New year is coming though.

Stack it high and run the air to it.. It will all work out just fine.. DB. once you figure it out you will be happy to have a forge and it will work well.. I know a guy who that is all he used for 40 years and turned out beautiful work. I asked him why, hard coal.. He said because it was cheap and he only needed to go to the local hardware store to buy it.. He developed his own forge and it was brilliant.

Peter Wright made 2 different value of anvil.. 1st quality was scrap wrought iron put together and welded and was the premium anvil. 2nd quality was new wrought iron put together. The scrap wrought iron having been worked more and refined more so when finished actually was a better product. Wrought iron is compressible. So, the more it is worked the less compressible it is or more solid it is.

Nice.. It sure is.. If you are happy with the price that is all that counts.. I loved that video you put together.. It was nice your friend helped with filming.. Great work and thanks for answering.. pricing is tricky for sure and talking about it can be even more so..

IFC.. that is the case for many.. And many who only use it once in awhile can do a lot of damage to the hip if they use it wrongly.

Charles I'd guess your preferred length is about 15-20" long.. Out of curiosity please share the length? thanks

Keep in mind what I wrote earlier.. it does not matter whether it's 2 hands or 1 hand or even a foot hammer.. getting in shape for a given activity will indeed offer the best protection against future injury.. Most forging activities are hammer, anvil, vise related so can be the best source for getting in shape but it has to be regular just like going to the gym. Same is true for sledge work and the same.. If one does start going to the gym it's been outlined in areas to work by muscle groups.

today, especially in certain places they use hand hammers with two hands since they are not prepared for strikers.. I've seen it many times at impromptu demos. Heck I did a demo on hatchet making at a very great shop of a part timer.. I get there and they had no welding flux.. the hatchet was a wrapped construction.. who doesn't have welding flux at a blacksmtihing shop knowing it was a welding demonstration.. The owner of the shop is a blacksmith in his own right. Knowledgeable and skilled, yet no flux..

Jasent.. See here is the thing.. Good technique is learned and for a given person the endurance is a learned trait for their ability or if conditioned to function in a particular way.. I use a European or Swedish method of swinging a sledge so the hammer never goes around the back and over the head, like in a rail road film or in early forging films when working with very large forging with a gang of 10 men at the hammers. Most the hammers even in anchor making were only 6 or 8lbs. What constitutes bad form for one person is normal for another.. The problem is specific examples of form vs function.. I work with a mason who uses both hand hammers and sledge hammers daily, but yet is not a very good striker.. Not yet anyway. He has worked with Lyle Wynn and they use an over the head strike because they are unskilled strikers and need the most bang for the buck. I also have worked with a couple of teenagers who worked with me on a regular basis who I taught to swing hammer in that Swedish tradition and they could swing at any angle and move the metal like no one could that did not have experience over head with a larger swing or not.. During the story board aspect of the chisel build I took over sledge duty for one heat.. and in 1 heat completed a full tang where the other guy took 2 heats though he was working his but off. Technique was key to doing this for sure.. Technique but more important is the skill set behind the reason why I swung the way i did.. And I only use short hammer strokes.. After this demonstration for this stone mason, he was surprised how the metal moved so quickly and not once was the hammer blow straight... Proper use if the hammer and knowing how to use the hammer can sometimes be 2 different things even asked of 1 person. The ability to see the difference between what is shown, what is done and then being able to apply it can be part of the learning aspect.. But overall, if someone is asked to move outside their comfort zone physically (old, out of shape, not skilled, etc, etc) it doesn't matter how good their technique is.. they will flat line quickly.. Most forging heats are only 1minute to 2 minutes... this can get made longer if the item can be forged quickly enough to finished shape and then burnished in 1 heat then this can be moved outwards to 3 to 5 minutes when working by hand. If using a fast press or larger power hammer with large stock sizes this time frame are moot but we are not referring to this type of forge work. But for hand forging even with a sledge hammer vs hand hammer it's the same window or only 1 to 2 minutes.. At some point I have videos in the que for both sledge work, file work, welding work. But they won't happen anytime soon. Anyhow, While the discussion of this is very complex because of peoples experiences it always comes back to the same factors for all this blacksmithing work. Knowledge, skill, applied skill, forging prowess and physical ability. (In shape, both mentally, and physically to be able to apply the work needed to the object. )_ There is a reason why every video produced has mistakes in it, and why I always choose to upset or do harder ways vs easier ways for the video. If something looks to easy most will dismiss it as impossible. If made to look to hard no one will ever try it.. but to see someone make a mistake which we all do, then to pull it back around it can show a difference. Well this is the hope at least.. But, apparently i maybe missing the mark on the videos..

It is the same.. Being in shape become the most important aspect. it doesn't matter, if one handed or 2 handed. My 9lbs hand hammer is more than most will swing even with a sledge weight wise..

I missed the edit opportunity.. So will add this now.. There are distinct difference between how a beginner hobbyist smith will work and a professional.. The range in between.. The building up process for muscle and warming up is important no matter where you are in the spectrum.

First off.. forget most of what is said.. There are tidbits of gold in all of it.. But.. Because of use, we all have a finite number of anything in simple normal daily use and it varies strictly by person.. It has nothing to do with better or worse ways or what have you.. There are better ways to hammer and worse ways but it all comes down to "WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU" There are so many varied techniques with people claiming that if you work this way or that way that you will have less pain and a longer useful life span.. If you are a chair jockey and expect to forge like a beast on the weekend forget it. My observation is simply this: Start off with the lightest hammer you can swing for a given amount of time and expect to be sore if you don't do a given activity regularly.. This is weight lifting plain and simple. Go and watch the newest video of making the carving chisel. It shows me in my form for working on an anvil that is 2 inches lower than what I prefer.. I can safely work on and anvil that is 2" lower to 2" higher than what I prefer.. With this said, I was sore after working for 4 hours.. this is normal as I am using more muscles in a way they are not used to. With this said. Most can not do this.. I can do this because of getting in better shape and being in better shape or forging shape will offer the best outcome of any hammer adventure.. ( GET IN SHAPE). This can take 3 months or 3 years depending on how much forging you do.. Going to the gym can help.. The biggest thing that happens is someone will start to forge and move up in hammer size to quickly and also not forge enough for a given hammer size and this leads to injury.. The other thing is to warm up thoroughly before you start swinging hammer.. Start off with a light hammer and make a nail or 2 in a slow fashion or make something that takes swinging but use a light hammer. Again warm up. Now as for hammer size.. I swing a 4lb hammer on a normal basis and also use a 6lb hand hammer as well as up to 9lbs with 1 hand.. But, I have had to work up to the 4lbs hammer over about 2 years and this is the key.. Start with a small enough hammer that you have some muscle soreness but no joint pain.. If you experience joint pain stop and move to a lighter hammer and swing lighter.. Pay attention to what your body is telling you.. A 2lb hammer might be good for a general hammer for someone young enough and working as a carpenter or laborer but as you age and sit in an office all day its important to keep this in site.. People often forget that as they age, they still think of themselves as a 20 year old stud.. then at 55 wanna swing that 10lbs sledge and get hurt. Blacksmithing is not dangerous as many will have you believe, and taking it on at any age is possible.. But common sense needs to be applied and common sense can run in short supply. Many will say not to bend at the waist to stand up straight and swing from your elbow.. Or to keep a light grip on the hammer handle and let it swing or pivot in your fingers using the rebound from the anvil to help bring the hammer back up.. (there is no rebound energy when hot metal is hit so is bogus) until the metal gets cold enough then you move into burnishing vs forging.. Anyhow, get in better shape, use the smallest hammer you can that offers control and if you want to use a larger hammer "DO NOT" start using that hammer all at once but bring it into use over a period of months... use it for a few heats and put it back down.. I have found that introducing a larger hammer this way, most people don't get sore, gain more hammer control on their normal hammer becoming more proficient and with a short time frame move up in hammer size and have great control and they swing it like they own it. So, take your time, introduce the hammer on and off till you forget you are swinging the larger hammer.. Get in shape either through hammer time or going to the gym.. Work on bicep, triceps, back, stomach, and legs.