anvil

coal for me hands down and not for traditional reasons. most of the benefits have been named. a little elaboration. cost: coal at the mine is around $100/ ton. for me, its less than a days drive round trip. thru beautiful country. very few mines in the suburbs or inner cities. so even with gas and a splurge on lodging, a ton-ton and quarter is around $250 max. this will last me around a year of full time work. hard to beat. control: I've worked propane, so am comfortable with it. I don't like the excess heat. even with a shield, when you remove work, it comes out the front hot and fast. as far as noise, when I hear the roar of a propane forge, all I see are $ up in smoke. sheesh. there is no control for this. production/non production: this ties in with control. here's a great but true blacksmith one liner: "how did you do that?,,,, six inches at a time. so an example I can maintain a 10"-12" heat on say 4 bars of 1" square w/o a problem comfortably and once they reach proper heat will keep me busy with no delays. I can maintain, when needed, a 16"-20" heat on say 3- 1-1/2"x1/2" x 20', with proper setup(multiple stands) and work this on pwr hammer or anvil and stay time efficient- meaning no downtime waiting on heats. for smaller stuff such as rosets, estucheons, rivits etc, with a piece of proper width channel iron in the fire, I can place as many as needed, bring all to heat and finish one/add one and never wait on a heat. with my hand crank blower,,, I do love my dance at the anvil,,, when I move to the anvil, it decreases the airflow, and thus maintains a proper heat whilst at the anvil with no fear of burning my other irons. a gate works fine here for fan power. scale: this hasn't been mentioned. there is way less of a scaling problem with coal than gas. correct me if I'm wrong but this is especially a problem with lots of pieces in the propane forge. I suspect this can be dealt with as experience grows and you learn (coal or gas) just what "too many irons in the fire" truly is for your experience level. smell: as has been stated, it gets in your blood. when I smell coal, I perk up and start looking for a source,,,, often as not I find another smith!

old hay rake tines and potato planter belt make excellent springs. i treat them like W-1. they are 3/8 round and are usually give-a-way stuff. when tempering, i flash them once or twice in corn oil depending on my whim. advice from Tom Bredlow years ago.

jdinbr since my grammer died… all i have left is my hammer and anvil. ;)

actually Alec, all three of your setups are going to end up with wasp waist at the transitions. the first one has no upset, the second has the upset in the wrong place or is not long enough,the same with the third. also with the third you will end up with a cold shut at the collar/branch transition as your example shows. a light forge weld and leaving the collar proud will prevent this. otherwise you need a rather complex scarf around the whole collar. the latter are especially tough for a novice who does not have the necessary hammer control or fire management skills. your upsets/ added material needs to be before and beyond the actual forge weld as that is where the thinning occurs during a forge weld. your center one offers a cool transition if it were 2-3 times longer(or long enough for your end detail) and you left the top third at the infinity point. then you would protect the integrity of the sq mass and have a nice transition/step down to the smaller mass.

Cut/Forgwelded fire tool. First some terms and concepts. Infinity or disappearing point. This happens where a forgeweld diverges into 2 or more directions. Its best described as 2 converging lines that disappear into infinity. Its one of those cool exquisite and subtile details that only a forgeweld can produce. If it is drilled,welded,or cut via plasma, you get a "U" at this juncture. The only way I know to get this is to forge it closed. You then get a reasonable facsimile and… a cold shut. Seeing this happen between leaf and branch just takes my breath away. And its a quick and dirty process. Transition: This is where a piece changes in some way, usually but not always in cross section. These are the most difficult to pull off w/o careful thought and planning. They are also the primary places the eye finds when looked at. They are very critical! Figuring out parent stock for ANY shape using mass,length math and volume. I have not seen anybody go into this here but believe it must be covered somewhere on the board. I attempted it a while back on a post but did not pursue it. To duplicate shapes/tapered scrolls it is a must know concept… IMHO. Again, i'm not going to detail this but will try to show its use. Feel free to ask me about it if you want. Onwards and upwards. 1) Conceptualize the piece. This is where you see it in your mind. I'm not a clay guy. I would rather execute a test piece in iron, then be able to put it on my wall as a design element for my clients to see. Clay just won't hold up hanging on the wall. :) Iron is iron and clay is clay. No critique for those who do…just my way. 2) Drawing. I do a full size drawing on my layout table in chalk. Now my mind has conceptualized it and my eye can see it. 3) Determining the elements and analyzing for problems and what is step one etc. For our poker there are 4 elements we will be concerned with. A) Transition. B) Poky end C) Hooky end D)Handle end. Transition is where the poker,hook,and handle diverge. Transition is the "heart" of the piece. Its where all the bad stuff mentioned in this thread happens. Flat spots and wasp waists just beyond the forge welds. Parent stock data layout: this is where we use the math,mass,volume to know what are parent stock will be. Quickly said, you use geometry(i think) to determine the volume of the finished detail. Then figure how much this weighs. In this case the weight of the hook and the poker. Then we find an equivalent amount of parent stock by weight and calculate its length. Remember we are not concerned with the handle beyond say an inch past the infinity point. NOTE my numbers are grabbed out of the air to show concepts only! LETS make our poker out of 1/2" square stock. The infinity point is our primary point of reference for all elements. Lets say the pokey end is 6" from infinity point to tip. When we cut and fold for the poker, the parent stock will be 1/2x1"( two pieces half sq side by side = 1/2"x1"). Lets say we need 3" of 1/2"x1" to forge our 1/2" sq tapered to 6" for the pokey end. Half comes from one side of the fold,and the other from the off side. Measure the hook with a piece of wire along its CENTERLINE from infinity point to tip. straighten your wire and lay this out on your table. This will be a 1/2" sq tapered. Lets say this is 4" and we need 2" of 1/2" sq parent stock to get our 4" taper. We need to add this 4" to the 3" of 1/2" sq to get our initial lengths before forging and to start our actual layout. NOTE! No forging has been done. We now know all our parent stock length. Poker: 1- 3" X 1/2"x1"( are you with me here? critical! X2 after cut and bend = 3" -1/2"x1" parent stock. Hook: 1- 4" X 1/2" sq stock. Now lets lay out our 1/2" bar. Hook: Measure up 4" from bitter end and centerpunch. For half of the poker 4" + 3" = 7". Measure from bitter end and centerpunch @ 7". This brings up to our cut point. Cut point: Center punch @ 7". Infinity point: Center punch 10" from bitter end.(7"+3"=10") Come up another ~ 1"or so to prep handle transition and centerpunch (11" from bitter end) NOTE! always measure from 1 reference point to minimize cumulative error! Also pay attention to where you place centerpunch marks to best hide them when piece is completed. Now we have our bar laid out and we know right on the money where and what they are. Now for the fun part. Upsetting prep for forgewelding There are a few concepts here. The first is that we lay out our bar to exact lengths. If we upset a piece, it shortens, then draw it back out to original cross section, our length has not changed. Second the greater the upset the more time it takes to reduce it back to original cross section X2- once for upset and once for drawing back. So with experience… work towards minimal upset 'cause if you have hundreds to do it will save you beau coup time! So arbitrarily i'm going to say at each centerpunch mark, lets upset to 9/16" thick and 1"long centered on the centerpunch (half"on each side). Start at the far end(handle end) and get a good yellow heat ~1-1/2" long. Don't use your 2-1/2 lb hammer. Use a lighter one. A lighter hammer won't distort the cold end and will better transmit force to where you want it. Repeat at each centerpunch mark. Now you are at the bottom of the bar and its already hot(save those seconds!) now forge the hookey deal to final length. Take care not to forge too much of the upset and especially not past the centerpunch. Do a lil sq; octagon; round transition here. gently champer the edges of the upset. This adds a very cool dimension to the infinity point. Continue the light champer up past the handle end. You can now scroll the hookey end to match your drawing. This is all so much easier to do when the bar is straight. I use and swear by bending forks for this. They are made as a set and by opening size. You can't have too many, but 1/8" increments from 1/4" to 3/4" is wonderful to have. Then larger as needed. Mine have a flat bottomed "U", not a curved bottom. They are a pair. A handled one with the "U" and an "H" shaped with different opening size. This goes in the vice. This gives you precise control of your scrolls and with experience the scrolls are quick to make. Now cut and fold at the 2od centerpunch mark and fold bar. Forgeweld gently one time up to the infinity point. Now you can see what the champer adds, Draw out at a forgewelding heat the pokey end. Don't forget the sq; octagon; round for all these transitions. There is one area that is hard, if not impossible to get to on any branching scroll. That's the curve that is part of the transition. You get this by forging it right now, not scrolling it later. With the poker and handle side on the face of the anvil, forge the hook part below the infinity point with a rounding hammer of appropriate size. I have three from a farriers hammer to my small one i made from my Willys axle many moons ago. Here you creat the beginning of the curve for the hook. Staying below the infinity point preserves the integrity of the hook transition. Meaning a nice curve and no porking wasp waste! The bottom edge stays in plane with the handle and poker and has no curve. Clean up your chamfers Now… on pain of all blacksmiths from all times past kicking yer butt :) do not clamp the pokey end in your vice and beat madly on the hookey end! Use your bending forks to tune up the hook. Use a bridge tool. Ask me later or search for it. Its the tool to forge the tines on a fork. Put the piece here up to the infinity point and clean up and champer all edges. blow any itinerate upsets and get yer transition looking Cool! This tutorial may not suffice structurally for landing gear for the Space Shuttle…but i porking guarantee you it will be more than strong enough for a bloody fire poker! And no wasp waist's or flatspots in your scroll! One more note. My personal preference is to not make my pokers in this manner. The stresses when snagging a log are to open the forge weld. Done this way it shouldn't come apart(depending on skill level) but psychology wise, it doesn't create harmony in my eye. I prefer a loop or eye weld,cut the loop and make the hook and poker from each piece. Now the force when snagging and dragging a log is to close the weld. The technique for both is about the same. Again this is my personal preference as stated above. Hope this is clear enough to all who asked "how?" If not than Fire away,Gridley Trust this is not "The Way". I can do this detail in at least one other way and get a completely different effect! That's what is cool about having different ways to accomplish any task. Each way creates a different "Feel" .

i put myself in with basher, Dan P, and that ole desert curmudgeonly rat Thomas Powers. each has stated their reasons clearly, simply and directly…well…one with a bit of fire, but never the less… I'll just paraphrase Thomas: any time someone says this is the only way (or some variation of that) sit up and take notice. when they say here is a way or here's another way, pay attention,you will learn something. as far as structural: what are you saying as proof of inferiority and bad craftsmanship? are you implying structural tests and x-rays for? we aren't making stinking landing gear for the space shuttle, its a bloody first attempt fire poker. sheesh, its hard enough making money without that problem. that's what all three of my positive examples are saying. sorry, but it is just another technique in our lil bag of tricks one of which is a fire poker. another is a branch element that will never have force applied to it. please don't try to limit our lil bag of tricks? i do understand what you are saying about the three wasp waist's that can happen making this transition and the flatspots that can develop in the scrolling. however to clamp the pokie end in the vice and beating on the hookie end is certainly not how to do it without a doubt. but your statement that it cannot be done in any other was is wrong as well. you certainly have given a number of examples that will accent a debacle bending forks perhaps? the "H" shaped one in the vice and the handled one ..well .,.in the hand. iron in the middle comes directly to mind. your statement that that exquisite vid in forge welding has nothing or very little to do with your example is off the mark. you are detail oriented, well if you cannot assimilate those simple details into every forgeweld you do, then take your appreciation of detail to the next level. upset is really needed, like you say. scarf is usually needed, but not always. detailing before forgewelding is often times needed as is final forging after the weld is made. don't forget an upset or added material can happen where needed not just the end of the bar. i know you do know all the above is true. you couldn't do the fine work you do otherwise. it sounds to me like you are majorly frustrated and angry at "association(s)" teaching improper techniques to newbies and beginners. your issue should be with them, not folks on this board. but you give no examples, just subjective vagaries. other "first forgeweld" projects: without a doubt Turley Forge horseshoe sandwich is a great one. all my classes start with this. don't know what it is? ask and i or someone will answer in another thread, or do a google search. coke spoon weld. this has many applications and variations. heel calks on a horse shoe. the cut/bend goes to the ground side. no a scarf needed but an upset helps. raised heel slider on a horseshoe. it is scarfed, upset helps, bend goes to bearing(hoof) side. forgeweld this with the ground side down. when done put the bearing side down and with a rounding hammer set bearing side into plane and clean up the slope. you get a real nice ski jump effect from front of weld to heel of shoe on the ground side. i use a variation of the ski jump example as a finial in lots of applications such as the end of a bracket(flat on wall side ski slope tapered on outside. its simple and sweet. now for the biggie. i cannot do pics at this time... sorry, but i will do a how to on this poker deal and show ANOTHER way it can be done. I'm working on it now. hopefully i can make it clear.

when shoeing a horse, take one look at the prepped hoof, go to the anvil and shape it in one go around. with just the right amount of " check this dude out" check for fit, and see its "Right On" except its upside down. :) casually toss it over to the off side and do the next one correctly. Now that's an impressive save!

its actually cheaper to get the %100 at the pharmacy(no prescription needed) than the rat poison w/ 5% unknown. boric acid is a very gentle chemical with many benign uses such as an eye wash.

tried them all. they all work. haven't tried Turleys variation,( he he that's got a nice ring to it). I prefer grocery store borax and boric acid. mix it about 3 to 1. pure boric acid is avalable at your pharmacy. no need to do rat poison/boric acid. cheap and good stuff. make sure you get 20 mule team borax. not soap or scented.

if your client describes what he wants and starts with "all you got to do is" triple the price.

hope this isn't a dp when I do scrolls I lay them out full size on my table within their framework. 'I measure with electrical wire(plastic coated) the length of the scroll to the taper,upset,branch what have you. complex scrolls get broken down to their component parts. then I do the math on the taper/upset and all other parts. then forge and scroll my testpiece, and fit it to the chalk drawing on the table. it is as eady to be right on as it is to be close enough, and this works for me. I have made clay mockups in the past, for a short time. for me, I would rather work with the iron. nothing can be as close to real as the real stuff. so it wasn't worth my time others do well with clay or softer materials.

I add one step to his process. after forging them together, I quench the joint. you can hear that sucker "snick" tight! very cool. I've also drilled thru the round bar and added a rosette top and bottom. when quenched, I've never "had" to rivit, done it for the detail.

anothet great "shrinking joinery" is the clayton clamp. I saw this at Ripley and have done it on a number of railings. http://www.iforgeiron.com/page/index.html/_/blueprints/100-series/bp0148-clayton-clamp-r380

my process: 1: mental concept 2: perspective sketch 3: scale dimensional drawing 4:full size drawing on table 5: make full size sample of detail 6: if I have repeated scrolls, I make s test piece and fit it to my full scale drawing to please my eye, not to matvh the drawing, then make all scrolls to match this pattern piece (not jig) that's it

does shrinking wagon tiers on wagon wheels count? plus the 4 hub bands?

Thomas, just finished the article. good info. yup, all you got to do is,,, heat it and beat it.

thanks all. its never been an issue, so its never crossed my mind.

thanks for the quick reply. does it increase in dia, assuming round? or the other way around?

I have a machinist friend making a small part for my truck. he didn't want to heát treat because it would change its cross section dimension. I've never had to worry about this, and have not read anything about this happening. is this an issue where close tolerance might be a problem? thanks in advance typo corrected

likewise. lol i'll add Turley to my list.

I use linseed oil, turps and jappan dryer. linseed and turps 50/50 and a healthy pour of jappan dryer. I keep it in a small mouth can. keep it sealed at all times. the jappan dryer is just that a drying agent and will evaporate out of your can if not sealed. then I use either johnsons past wax or a carnuba based wax over it. this will darken it some, but not like a hot oil finish. it dries quick and works well inside. for instance if you were finishing a 6' rail, the beginning will be dry when you finish the end. apply a couple of coats. if you mix say a pint of each turps and linseed oil with a "healthy" pour you will not ever have a tacky finish in the summer heat, even if it were outside in the sun. you should be able to get it at the same place you get the other stuff.

Bruno you can do it that way, and yes there are many ways to skin a cat. and no that's not a stoopid question, but a good observation. if you use a collar or a bolt, you are just using a hammer and anvil. I believe its quicker to forge weld on a collar than just do an upset in many cases. also look at the bottom of the ball shape. when you forge weld on a collar, that detail is done when the weld is complete. to get a ball say twice the size of the parent stock is an upsetting experience. :) there will be places where either way might be easier or quicker, so its best to be able to do it both ways. I've made a lot of grapes by upsetting! give it a try. make sure the collar is slightly smaller and the ends don't touch when wrapped around the parent stock or the weld is harder to get.

Lol, we all forgot. the rule is thickness of material you are going thru + 1-1/2 x thickness of rivit material.

after talking w/ the client and coming up with a design concept, I do a full set of drawings. I make sure they know there is a % of bid cost for these. next we modify or confirm the drawings. then I do a sample piece and its done as a % of the job. now they have a concrete idea of what they are getting. at the beginning I make sure they understand that if they approve a step, the cost goes to the next phase. meaning if they accept the drawings, the cost is included in the sample costs and so on. when we finalize the job I ask for either 1/4 or 1/3 down depending on length of job, and. agreement on advances as I progress. I make sure from the get go that no matter what, the drawings and samples are mine. they are paying for my time, not product during the design phase. I too had a set of drawings of mine given to another smith. he knew me and contacted me for permission to use my drawings as the basic idea for his bid. lol, he said he was unable to match my concept. I felt flattered, and gave my permission.

hey, he has the best excuse in the world for being the curmudgeon he is, too much time over a hot forge in the middle of the hot N.M. desert.