FredW

I have used a lot of old springs and while most are suitable steel i found a lot of them had imperfections in them. I had a lot of cracks show up while forging them. I also heat treat unknown spring steel like 10 series or 5160 and i have had some not harden up like i wanted as well. Can be a pain for someone just learning. 1080 steel is fairly inexpensive and good steel for blades. contacting a spring shop is a great way to go. My brother in law gets 5160 drops from one in KC area by the 5 gallon bucket full, usually free. At the least you would probably only have to pay scrap price. Fred

shop looks great, I live in north Missouri and trying to remember where Adrian is at. Heard of it but can't remember. The flue still needs to be that high, i believe. Just to prevent smoke backing up into shop on windy days. Looks a bit warm out yet so when starting the fire the smoke will be bad until the flue gets warm enough to draw good. It should get better when the weather gets colder. I like the hood and dropping the front would make it harder to see, though don't know how tall you are in comparison to the forge. Cold hinge a piece on the hood to fold out of the way but I am not convince that would do any good with the draw as there is a lot of area in front of the forge. You might have to close off alot more than you think to do any good. Could also put a ventilation fan in the wall as well. That would take care of the smoke problem. Fred

Great thread, still trying to figure out the secrets. When i was young i got a job with the local sheet metal union. After the summer was over I decided to go ahead and apply for the apprentice program. I spent most of my apprenticeship in the shop and at that time, I suppose I thought I was learning all the secrets of the trade. Now that I look back I realize there were no secrets to be learned really. The journeymen in the shop showed me tricks, shortcuts, and ways to make my job easier but no secrets. Some of those shortcuts were also more related to how i pushed the broom or used the shovel. Of course one of my jobs were to also make the lunch run or end of week beer run (safety meeting). Point is I spent a lot of time doing a lot of different things that were common to most jobs, or not, and my job as an apprentice was to basically work my way up. Everyone was very willing to show me how to properly cut a piece of sheet metal with hand shears or even to lay out a specific fitting for ducts. None of it was a secret. One thing that stuck in my head from my days as a union apprentice was not the tricks of the trade but the advantage i had being an apprentice over someone who worked his way up through a non union shop. They did not have the advantage of the 4 nights a week of school and then having that same information then showed me in a shop setting. My foreman would tell me, over and over, for 4 years, and a lot of those times i was rolling my eyes, there were a lot of people out there that can do my job and it was his job not to only teach me how to work with sheet metal but to show me how to be a craftsman. To take pride in my work and maybe one day it will be at a quality that it did not matter what my hourly rate was. People would seek me for the job. I was not very skilled at first but within 2 years i could do a lot of the layout work the journeymen were doing. I was not nearly as fast and mistake free but could do it. I was given the information and was doing something with it. I don't believe there are any real trade secrets as it is not necessary anymore. There may be proprietary knowledge of say alloys but if someone wanted that knowledge how difficult would it be to find out, really. I really don't think there are that many trade secrets but there are a lot of opportunities to learn here. Sometimes there are those who ask questions and they expect the short version of how to get where they want to be. Sometimes and experienced craftsman gets annoyed with the question or the apparent lack of interest in doing the leg work and they get a bit of a lashing for it. Most of the time on this forum everyone is very helpful and will at least point them in the right direction. I also do understand the responses as well. I will never be an expert blacksmith as I am in it for the hobby, but it is nice to have the help of those that are. I also spend most of my time reading here and books. I do suspect that a lot of the people asking the questions and expecting the short answer to all their problems will not end up being serious blacksmith. However, there may be one that would and attempting, at least to point them in the right direction is the thing to do and i will help if i can, though most often I can't. Treating them respectfully when replying is very important, no one here doesn't really need to be told that. No matter what though you are always going to have that person who wants the easy way out, more often than not it seems. No point in worrying as they will most likely do the minimal research and then eventually move on. A lot of them will be the younger generations as they are just now exploring what they may actually be interested in doing for the rest of their lives, as a career or hobby and most will not spend much more than asking a question on this forum then move on. We should also understand that as well. Now I too have done a lot of different jobs in my life, sheet metal worker, truck driver, farm hand and my most recent career as a social worker in the child protective services. I will have to agree the kids today have to be more mature and have more responsibilities than when I was a kid in the 60' and 70's. I also see a lot of them fending completely for themselves, even taking care of their families as well. I don't blame these things of family or the kid. Sure the parents need to take responsibility and so do the kids. I could not imagine some of the situations these kids grow up in until I worked in child protective services. The one thing I learned from this job was to understand where they may have come from and not to judge them. They need someone to encourage them, to be positive, to show them not everyone blames them for everything. Most kids are not lazy, most do things differently than we, which is a good thing. I know a lot of kids that are very hard working and put a lot of effort into pleasing those older. The ones that we see as "No Good" are those that have tried for so long and gave up. They are not bad, just need a lot more help. I also don't believe they are that much different than when I was a kid or those generations ahead of me. Issues they have, abuse, neglect, have been going on since the beginning of man, just more of them and we hear about in more. Now i do not disagree with physical discipline but there are proven ways that work better. Positive discipline works very well. Tell the kid how good a job they are doing. Let them know how proud you are of them. you would be amazed how well that works. You can use physical discipline for the more immediate dangers in life, like running out into a busy street or playing with electrical outlets. All of this is also just one opinion and there are many proven methods of discipline. The problem we see in society today is people taking the easy way out, a lot may be due to parents issues. What happens is the kids learn from that and 9 times out of 10 they get worse. Eventually to the point the parent gives up. Wow I seem to be a bit mouthy, geez. My point of all this ranting is kids aren't lazy, but some are a bit jaded. Most will work hard to please you or at least someone willing to give them the time. I found those I used to call lazy just have completely different interest than me. I had a nephew I thought was the laziest kid around, now he is a college graduate and manager of a sales network, making 3 times the money i am, and he's just starting. What a lazy kid. Anyway I absolutely love this forum and have and will continue to learn a lot from it and the members. Thanks all for allowing me to rant. Fred

Nice fork, I see it was tested with hotdogs. i had built a firepit in the back yard and decided to makes some nice roasting forks to go along with it. I tested mine on marshmallows. The first roasted marshmallow i tried to get off the fork with my mouth was the last. There are a lot of nerve endings in your lips apparantly. It provided an awful lot of entertainment for my family. It was also the last time I did that. The forks are now just for hotdogs and brauts. Fred

SmoothBore, a bit late but, when i draw a picture i can get extremely close to proportions though not as accurate as auto cad but close enough no one person can see the difference. There is the golden rule which is a mathmatical equation that helps to keep proportions that are pleasing to the eye. I don't remember the formula as have really not had the need for it. I can draw an asymetrical or symetrical object and get very close to those proportions by eye. A measured drawing is great but impossible while with a customer discussing design while say on the jobsite or in the parking lot or their living room. Drawing by had can be done anywhere and you don't have to be an artist. With practice most anyone can draw it by hand then go to the measured drawing later when you want to sell the customer on the design. FredW

Thanks Phil, that is good to know. This means if I use mild steel in my billet I am going to have to use a lot more high carbon to keep the carbon content high. Would make a much better knife. So if I use the same size layer of each kind of steel, mild and 1095, and I use 3 layers of 1095 and 2 layers of mild (1018). I fold it 4 times and weld each time. 80 layers if use 5 peices of steel in billet. I am going to have a billet that is .678 carbon, if I did the math correctly. Not a terrible amount for a knife but not great. Would actually be less as carbon is lost during the welding process. Changes the way I am going to do things. Fred

Not sure why you are looking at a finished carbon content on a damascus billet. I suppose you can fold it a couple of dozen times while making the billet so the layers will be so thin the carbon will migrate throughout to make a billet with nearly the same carbon content throughout. If so then what is the point of making the Damascus. Folding that much negate any grain you may have but then again there won't be that much contrast with using just carbon steels anyway. I would put several layers of what you have together with the highest carbon content steel on the outside. That way whenever you fold the high carbon will be in the center and you will always have a high carbon edge. However if you trying to take junk steels and weld them together to get a higher quality steel or just a consistant carbon content throughout, then I would do as these guys say. You did say you wanted a finished content of at least 90 point. Fred

Try radio shack for ferric chloride. It is used to etch circuit boards. I use vineagar as it is cheap and I can get it virtually anywhere. If you heat the vinegar to 140 or so it will etch much quicker. Matter of minutes but still much slower than ferric chloride. Fred

I've done some buisness with him and have always been pleased. Fred

Anything 1020 or less would be considered mild steel. 1010 especially. As far as I know, mild steel is a general term and have never heard of any specific specs on it, never looked either. Needless to say, mix the 1010 with the 5160 and you can get pretty good looking damascus, and if done right a really good blade. As long as the 5160 is in the core you are fine. Fred

If you layer the 5160 on the outside of the billet you will always have the 5160 in the center as you fold and weld the billet. 5160 makes great knives and there should be at least a little contrast as they will both etch differently. 5160 is a chromium steel so will not etch like the mild. Could make a nice blade.In a sence all you would be using the mild steel for is to contrast the 5160. This guy does a lot of knives using low carbon steel and does a very nice job. http://www.aescustomknives.com/ Fred

I am planning on being there at least one day. Probably Saturday.

I read the Wiki article and did not know it was a native tree. Very interesting read. I also hadn't seen one taller than about 20' around here. I would love to see a 40' or 60' hedge tree. That's a lot of fire wood. Fred

Not uncommon here. In Missouri we call it hedge. Came from Europe, I believe. It is used a lot in fence rows as wind breaks since the dust bowl days. Also makes good fence post as it last almost forever. Green trees are hard on chainsaws but old hedge posts is like cutting steel. Burns great in the wood stove. Burns very hot but you'll need to leave the door closed as it will pop like crazy. Very common tree around here. First time I heard it called Osage Orange, I laughed as it made it sound exotic. Of course south Missouri is Osage country so I thought it appropriate. This stuff grows like weeds here. To answer your question I would use Ash, very shock resistant like hickory. Makes good baseball bats too. Fred

I have those plans and hope to build it soon. Sorry can't help you but I will be watching this thread closly. Fred

I use wood cutting bandsaw blades and banding material. It gives good contrast. You will get some contrast with like materials but combining carbon steel with a high nickel steel is the best way. Bandsaw blades for wood tend to be nickel steel, I assume because it resists corrosion better than plane carbon steels. Banding material appears to be a high carbon steel. Carbon content for these is a matter of opinion. Some say .5 to .8 percent carbon. I think some are less but then when you make a knife of junkyard steel, you usualy don't intend it to be of the highest quality. Not saying the craftsmenship is not the highest quality but the steel quality would pretty much be unknown. Really doesn't matter if you just want to have fun. These steels still make a decent knife too. At least I havn't had any problems making them. Have fun. Fred

I built my blown forge out of an 18" piece of 8" square tube. I used an old microwave blower on it and it has more than enough air. Probably less than 20 cfm's. I used a draft induction blower on it first and ended up choking the air down because it was too much. Had to run higher gas pressure to run it. Now it will run on less than 10psi and weld. I believe you can get your forge to run on less pressure than that. I also have a forge with venturi burners and can weld with it also and it will run on 5lbs. pressure or less. Fred

Thanks for the help guys, I think I will try to find some Ospho. I think Lowes carries it. I have heard the name. Fred

Buying the kit kinda takes the fun out of it for me. And thought maybe I could do a decent enough job on materials I already have and be much cheaper than the kit. Thanks I will probably end up buying the kit from Brownells but wanted to check this route first. Fred

I've welded bandsaw steel and banding material before by hand. Didn't think it was too bad but I only did one billet. Gotta make sure is hot enough all the way through. I also weld handles on my billets when forge welding. I use a press and not a trip hammer. Don't have a trip hammer so don't really know how it works. I have never had to cut off the handle and re-weld back on, though I have seen a lot of guys that have. I have gotten close. I just weld to the end then when I fold the billet I will intentionally waste about and 1 1/2" of it so the what is folded is never close to the handle. Cut that peice of when you cut off the handle. Fred

Does anyone know where I can find phosphoric acid? I would like to try my hand at Parkerizing. Thanks for the help, Fred

This is a formula I use for, well not necessarily blackening but darkening. I use 1 part Zip Wax car wash and 1 part boiled linseed oil then I add little Japan Drier, about 10 percent of the 2 parts. It can be applied cold and will darken the steel. I have found you can sand the part to give it highlights and it will only darken the unsanded area. I just spray it and wipe off. Fred

Shoot, most of the time I just use vineager. Takes a while. To speed it up I put it in the microwave for about a minute and a half. It will etch damascus in just a few minutes, heated to about 140-150F. Fred

You can do this yourself, i use and old pressure cooker I setup for both pressure and vaccum. I have had some success with this. I do believe the pressure part of the process works better to get the liquid impregnated into the wood. I run it under a vaccum first then apply pressure. I also have use a half gallon canning jar and used the vaccum attachment from a seal a meal to put the contents under vaccum and it seemed to work well. I use nelsonite but there are a lot of other things out there that may be just as good or better. I still have not had good enough results to not send mine out to get done or to just buy handled material already stablized. For the best results you need to send to a professional. WSSI does a great job and you don't have to bother with it. I have seen a video about pressure treated wood where it is placed uder hydraulic pressure of a hundred pounds and the would is fully impregnated in less than 10 minutes. I don't have a setup to do that but if I did I dought I would send my wood out to be stablized. Don't know that I would not ever buy again. Just a lot good sources of handle material out there and really isn't that expensive. Fred