Bouncing metal

[Mbmul175]

Hi guys,

yesterday I was forging a rather large piece of metal into an axe. When I strike the metal, it would bounce back and I'd have to fight to keep it from falling.

Do you know what I'm doing wrong ? Am I using g too small a hammer? Is the metal too big for the anvil ? Am I not striking the metal propperly ? 

Thanks for your feedback,

Michael.

[Steve Sells]

what metal, what temperature ?

[Nobody Special]

So many missing variables here. A little more info and a look at your setup would help. Could be type of metal, metal shape or size, what you're using to hold it, temperature, how your hammer is dressed, your anvil, technique...

[Mark Ling]

That happens when I'm forging my hardy tools from inch and a quarter axle ( all with a hand hammer) but only once it gets down to a red.

                                                                                    Littleblacksmith 

[Kevin Olson]

Its kriptonite. Heat it till it sparkles then hit with a 20 pound sledge. LoL

[Mark Ling]

2 minutes ago, Kevin_Olson said:

Its kriptonite. Heat it till it sparkles then hit with a 20 pound sledge. LoL

I was using a twenty pound hammer, divided by five- a four pound hammer. Lol

                                                                                             Littleblacksmith 

[ThomasPowers]

Generally for me it's the metal's not hot enough, the metal is an alloy that's tough even when hot or I am not getting the metal flat on the anvil where I am hitting---many students have an issue with standing way back where their holding hand is and trying to strike long distance.  I tell them to step up to the anvil and let the holding hand go behind their hip---bracing it against their hip can help with bounce too.

How big is your anvil and how is it mounted?  When I use my 25# block anvil it can bounce a bit mounted on the stump and with a heavy hammer.

[Mbmul175]

Hi guys.

I have a Sidney aust 140 anvil mounted on a stand , there is a piece if railway sleeper between the anvil and the stand. I used a 4 lb hammer but it bounced most when I tapped it with a small ball and pean hammer. I was forging a 30x30 mm piece of steel that I believe to be mild steel.

Thanks for the replies

Michael

And I'm not sure about the temp, I don't have a forge yet so I used an oxy-acetylene torch that I stuck in a vice ... It worked ... 

 

And I welder a roundbar to the metal cause I don't want I struggle with tongs .

 

 

 i won't say the end product came out that bad tho, its crooked as xxxx  and needs about 3 days of filing and sanding, but I'm happy for a first weapon.

Watch your language, as you read when you joined, this is a G rated family friendly forum and we enforce that rule.

 

[rockstar.esq]

Michael,

When I first started out it seemed like my work bounced around more than it should.  It took me a while to figure out that really subtle changes in how I presented the work to the anvil made a huge difference in how the work responded when struck.

Sometimes a degree or two is all it takes to go from really forging metal, to chasing the piece around the anvil.  It's much easier to support the stock at the right position, if the anvil facing side of the work is well shaped.  If you watch videos of really skilled smiths, they tend to smooth out the surfaces at the end of every heat.  Initially I thought they were just fussy about making every step pretty, until I noticed it took them less steps to progress through the work than my roughshod efforts.

Plus it's TONS easier to straighten a misalignment as soon as it forms than it is to tweak a finished piece back in line.    Operations like upsetting are excellent practice for this kind of thing.  If you're out of line, it bends.  If you don't straighten it right away, it creates a cold shut.  Perhaps best of all, it often goes better if you're using lighter hammer with rapid blows.  You can get a lot of practice without a lot of material or a lot of especially hard work.

I hope that helps.

 

 

[Prevenge]

I am a relative noob in comparison to most other smiths on here but I found that , depending on what I am working on and what I am doing, I quite often dont even rest my piece on the anvil. Instead I keep my tong hang firmly squeezed but the elbow and wrist slightly slack and "hover" the piece just over the anvil. I think this mainly helps working with a flat piece like a knife. I find that the piece sort of "adjusts itself" in relation to the anvil when you strike it plus I don't lose as much heat via conduction so I can work the metal longer between heats. I still get the occasional wild one but I find that is mostly due to a poor tong choice or fit. Big stuff and certain alloy is gonna bounce regardless sometimes ...make sure you get it as hot as you can safely and maybe soak it a bit at temp and forge your tongs to fit the piece.

[Mbmul175]

Is it better to use tongs than just welding a rod on ? What difference do tongs make ?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Welding a rod onto the part is more solid than tongs, and easier for beginners in my opinion. It is the same as starting with a long enough piece of stock that you don't need tongs.

Tongs allow you to hold the piece from any side, but they need to fit the part tightly. If they don't fit tightly the part can move around when hammered on. That is why you see piles of tongs in old shops. One way to do it is to heat the tongs up with the part, and then forge the tongs down  to the part, then let them air cool. Some tongs are made of higher carbon steels and they will crack if quenched in water. Once the tongs are formed to the part they should grip tight. Another thing to consider is if you have the proper tongs for the job, as there are many different styles for different applications.

As for the metal bouncing around, what color are you forging at? You should be in the yellow range to start, and stop as it is getting red.

[Mbmul175]

It was high orange , but then again I did have bad lighting, so I could have been mistaken ...Ten I'll spnd my next free Saturday from forging tongs, since I only have 1  ... Any types you'll recommend as must haves ?

Thanks for the feedback

Michael.

 

[Mark Ling]

1 hour ago, Mbmul175 said:

but then again I did have bad lighting

well I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by this. If you meant that it was to bright or to dark. It is easier to see the colors in a dark room rather that bright room.

                                                                                                           Littleblacksmith

[Prevenge]

Can never have too many tongs.... V bit tongs in a couple sizes are very handy to have as you can use them on both round and square stock. A good set of sturdy flat jaw are also a necessity. Check out the iForge section of Anvilfire.com. They have some great illustrated tutorials that show step by step on how to make a few different styles.

[rockstar.esq]

I find I use wolf jaw tongs the most.  They're not as good as a job-specific set, but they're handy for most stuff.

I recommend you consider practicing with either a welded rod, or long parent stock until you cure the bouncing stock problem. Even excellent tongs won't stop a piece from slipping out of their grip if you're hamming it loose with poor technique.

 

[Mbmul175]

6 hours ago, littleblacksmith said:

well I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by this. If you meant that it was to bright or to dark. It is easier to see the colors in a dark room rather that bright room.

                                                                                                           Littleblacksmith

I was working in a dark room, but the sun shone in my eyes through the top of the window, the rest of the windows where blocked by a cattle truck, so one moment you see fine, then you move 1/16" in any direction and the sun blinds you .

 

5 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

I find I use wolf jaw tongs the most.  They're not as good as a job-specific set, but they're handy for most stuff.

I recommend you consider practicing with either a welded rod, or long parent stock until you cure the bouncing stock problem. Even excellent tongs won't stop a piece from slipping out of their grip if you're hamming it loose with poor technique.

 

What do you mean by a welded rod ? I don't know any tecneaques by name , I just use the hammer to move the metal in a way that I believe it will.

But I can hit a bee with a long axe, so aiming a hammer is no problem .

Thanks

Michael.

[ThomasPowers]

Rather than use tongs you weld a rod onto the end that you can hold onto.

example a piece of  1" sq stock welded to some 2.5" sq stock:

and in use

[Mbmul175]

Yeah sorry these are new terms for me and yes, that's what I did .

What where you making there ? Any social advice for particularly large metal ?

Thanks

Michael.

[ThomasPowers]

I was making the shaft for a stake anvil I made using a RR spike driving sledge as the head.  I will try to get a picture of the finished item posted tonight---it's on a computer in a different country right now...

As for "social advice" for working large stock----Make friends with smiths with large equipment!   This is not my shop; but rather a shop where the 100# Little Giant powerhammer was one of the *smaller* ones!  I believe in that picture I am headed toward the 200# Chambersburg.

For special advice on working large stuff:  work as hot as possible---since this was mild steel we were getting it up to welding temp in the gas forge.  We know that as another person sharing the forge accidentally welded their 3/4" round stock to my piece when shift it in the forge---no flux, no nothing; she just shoved it further in so the hot end ran up the side of my piece and welded---took a sledge to hammer it off!

Note that although it was a warm day I'm not exposing skin and my glasses are polycarbonate lenses in rated frames.

[Mark Ling]

nice beard!

                                                                                              Littleblacksmith

[ThomasPowers]

I had a job that allowed me to grow it until we could braid it, now it's much shorter, sigh. Though they still call me Santa Claus on the Factory Floor in December.  

Used to only  trim it with the propane forge's dragon's breath...

[ThomasPowers]

This is what it was for:

 

[Mbmul175]

Wow! That's really nice. was the hammer rounded like that or did you round it ? How did you attatch it, just mushroomed the metal through the hole or did you forge weld it in place ?

I have some 2" 3/4' mild steel square bar at my shop, and a bunch of old railway hammers. But alass I won't be able to heat such a piece of metal ... Yet ... 

[Mbmul175]

Correction, 3.2 inch ( I'm used to using the metric system not imperial )

How did you attatch the post to the log ? Just spike it in or did you thread it and bolt it from beneath ?