intrex Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has read or seen any documentation about how to streamline the forging process when making several identical pieces (other than the standard trial and error). In the engineering world there are volumns about manufacturing order of operations and design for assembly. I was wondering if anyone knows of anything equivalent for black smiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I try to do the crude heavy forging before the detail work. So I develop my pattern for a hook let's say, forge out the hook end and punch the screw hole then work on the horse head or the dragon finial. Don't want to loose any of the details you forged in or mar them with the tongs... The other thing I do is stack 3-20 pieces in the gas forge and do each step on all the pieces before moving on so they stay consistent. Haven't read up on the academic opinions. Can't help you there;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) I started in the business making multiple wholesale items that had to be similar within a family so my process was more or less as follows:Design/Conception - what is it supposed to look like and performance criteria.Operations - what must be forged and design of assembly.Size - rough estimate of the required stock and number of heats. This would also involve making samples and correcting if necessary.Jigs and fixtures - was there anything I could build to help with uniformity? All of my jigs and forms are numbered so I can refer to them specifically. For example, all my scroll jigs are numbered 1xx, length jigs 2xx, special dies 3xx, etc.After all of this was completed, I created a written work instruction with stock sizes, photos, instructions and required jigs. Using this system, I could return to a part months or years later without reinventing the wheel. I tested this once by giving one of my sons a work instruction and having him build something without any extra help from me and he was able to do it successfully. Edited February 20, 2015 by HWooldridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Look at the old smithing manuals, especially power hammer manuals. They are usually train specific but they show how to break down a project. Often the show how to accomplish the same project more than one way depending on stock on hand and equipment (important for repairs) I would imagine that some of the modern manuals concerning power hammers, drop forging, open die and closed die forging would be applicable. Or as an engineer/smith you could wright the defenitive work ;-) seems like some of the teachers on here push efecient use of heat and economy of work as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Hello all, I was wondering if anyone has read or seen any documentation about how to streamline the forging process when making several identical pieces (other than the standard trial and error). In the engineering world there are volumns about manufacturing order of operations and design for assembly. I was wondering if anyone knows of anything equivalent for black smiths. No documentation springs to mind.As mentioned by Charles and others the old books like Lillico show the sequence to achieve a form rather than than "streamlining" as such. Apart from jig and tool making and a specific heat source for the process and etc. Constantly trying to improve the process by trial and error is a given, but can be two edged...One of the greatest dangers with hand made batch production is "efficiency creep" for want of a better description, there is probably a management-speak phrase...I make a point to always keep the first one of the batch in view as as I go through each process. It is so easy to not notice that you are becoming more efficient and getting more movement out of each heat because of muscle memory and confidence of hitting in the right place. You may think you are doing the same thing as the original but it can really catch you out. This applies to power hammers and presses as well as hand work.An awful warning from History…One day I pointed this phenomenom out to a journeyman helper before I had to go out and he commenced a days forming of decorative points on the top of some pickets. Unfortunately (for the project) he either did not understand what I meant or believed it would not apply to him, especially now that he had been forewarned... When I asked him, on my return, where the first one of the 80 elements he had forged was, he indicated the bottom of the pile! I fished it out and showed him that he had progressively altered the angle as he got accustomed to the process and the later ones were forged to a much sharper angle….albeit with a similar number of blows and heats as the first.Pacing yourself on batch production is also a good thing to do. Getting tired and making mistakes is not efficient. There is no point in working 10% faster but having one in ten of you pieces unusable.My dad had a saying from the man that trained him, "Speed is not making mistakes". Sadly, I have managed to prove that correct on a number of occasions. Alan Edited February 20, 2015 by Alan Evans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I always keep track of heat cycles. Some people pooh-pooh this notion but if I can consistently forge a snub scroll in two heats once the forge and my arm are warmed up then I should be able to do that every time. One heat is pushing too hard and three heats is wasteful (and as Alan said, they won't look the same).I also have a scale engraved on the front side of my anvil in 1/2" increments so I can easily measure from the zero point on the heel. My old Haybudden anvil (now out of my possession) had one leg of a framing square riveted to the side for the same purpose.With regard to sequence, some operations must come before others to reach the desired result. For example, it's usually best to forge a point and shoulder the stem before forging a common leaf form. It is entirely possible to develop a different order of operations but it might turn out to be cumbersome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Alan I think efficiency creep is an excellent description of the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I make up sets of examples , step 1 to step 10 etc . and find the constant visual 3D references much better than measurements . and if efficiency creep improves what you are making then I would change examples . most of the repetitive work I have done has improved with repetition as the piece finds its form at the anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 when I read the subject line I was ready with all kinds of hings I'd learned. However, after reading this far I realize my production work days are a long time ago. So, my suggestion list got much shorter.Reading the old manuals may be good, I haven't so I can't say. However, there are books, studies and papers written about efficient production. And production is what we're talking about, whatever you want to call it, it's production work.Designing a production run is like solving any problem: recognize a problem, define the problem, analyze the problem, brainstorm the problem, solve the problem. If it's a repeat problem, refine the solution BEFORE beginning the run.I used to remember a much more concise list of actions to solve problems but. . .For the hands on experiences I can offer. I forge thick to thin. Thick sections take longer to heat and hold heat longer, if you've finished the thin sections first they are must more likely to be burned or suffer damaging scale loss. If I have one order I just make it and rely on experience and rules of thumb to sequence it. If I have 4-5 I rely on experience to determine if I will just make them or develop a production run. If I have 25-50 I develop a production run sometimes experimenting on working models or prototypes. If I have an order for 100+ logistics and equipment enter into the equations.I may not have a whole lot new to add but that doesn't mean I'm not windy anyway. <grin>Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 >>"Professional Smithing by Donald Streeter. Astragal Press* ISBN 1-879335-66-2 This book is for those that get past the basics of smithing and need to understand duplication methods and jigs for speeding up duplication. Wonderful book, and has some really detailed imagery of box-joint works and some very fine projects in colonial styles."<<I think Streeter's book is the closest thing that I have seen to a modern reference on production. He wrote it from the perspective of a one man shop, churning out wholesale items in bulk, not a craft fair vendor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I make up sets of examples , step 1 to step 10 etc . and find the constant visual 3D references much better than measurements . and if efficiency creep improves what you are making then I would change examples . most of the repetitive work I have done has improved with repetition as the piece finds its form at the anvil. I totally agree with Basher, I do ok with measurements and drawings, but I do so much better with something physical in my hands, a 3d reference as Basher coined it. I like how the efficiency creep, shows my progress and improvement... And I like the idea of switching to the new and improved version, assuming Its not at 850 out of 1000 pickets;-)HWoolridge's keeping a proper written log of products, process, lengths, and jigs is something to aspire to, I have had far too many marvelous projects that ended up in the journal of irreproducible results... Discipline is such a useful thing;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Record keeping doesn't have to be a 500 page manual. I have attached a Word doc describing a simple key ring holder. In this case, I did not number the jig (shame on me - do what I say, not what I do, right?) - but it does provide a basis. Key Ring Holder.doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intrex Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Thanks HWooldrige, I will probably start documenting just like this as a basic means of keeping track of previous projects. Maybe I will even go a litle crazy and create a web application where I can keep track of everything. If I ever get the time to do that I will open it up to everyone that wants to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 If you have ever visited an old shop that ran a production line, you may have seem a story board of sorts. Starts with the rough stock length and transitions through the isolation and finish forging processes. I saw an old shop in SF that had all manner of storyboards on the wall. The shop still made manhole lifting tools and parts for the old trolley cars in the city. The place was originally run by a German whose daughter married a local guy. The German was a master smith and he taught the young man the trade. The shop is or was a block off Folsom cross street Freemont. It was hidden behind a power substation, a real class act. I meet the young man, he was the last survivor and he got the building declared a historical location. I believe they use the forge occasionally for classes. If you are out there, try to visit when they are open. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beammeupscotty Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 If you have ever visited an old shop that ran a production line, you may have seem a story board of sorts. Starts with the rough stock length and transitions through the isolation and finish forging processes. I saw an old shop in SF that had all manner of storyboards on the wall. The shop still made manhole lifting tools and parts for the old trolley cars in the city. The place was originally run by a German whose daughter married a local guy. The German was a master smith and he taught the young man the trade. The shop is or was a block off Folsom cross street Freemont. It was hidden behind a power substation, a real class act. I meet the young man, he was the last survivor and he got the building declared a historical location. I believe they use the forge occasionally for classes. If you are out there, try to visit when they are open. Peter http://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/sf149.asp http://blog.sfgate.com/cityexposed/2012/07/21/san-franciscos-last-working-blacksmith-forges-on/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Scotty, you the man, thanks for posting the info and the video with Tony. I used to walk up to the engineers union hall on for years. I met Tony.and he told me his story as well as giving me a tour of his shop. We sold the Freemont building some years ago and moved Over to Oakland. The Freemont street offices were torn down for high rise yuppie condos. The neighborhood was always somewhat of an industrial zone but most everone sold out when industry left San Francisco. I do miss the tempo of the old city as opposed to what it has become. Thanks for the posting. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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