Adam Wesselby Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Hi there Im new to this forum but i have had previous knowledge of forging mainly for the sake of reparing tool as my qualified craft is as a stonemason. By repairing my tools i have learnt the basic skills of shaping steel but i have now become more abitous wanting to further my knowledge of black smithing into the art of sword smithing. the main reason for this been as i also take part in medieval reenactments and feel it would be a skill that would be both very useful as well as satisfying to learn. I am in the process of building a stone built forge planning to line the interior with natural clay as i read this was the original method of heat protecting stone forges so it would not blister and fracture the laminate of the stone. but as i have started to build the forge one main issue has come to mind and it is a major issue at that although i know the basics of working metal i have no idea what time of steel to use for the process. basicall the method i am hoping to use is the traditional method of beating out a heated blade. i have seen many threads both here and else where that talk of using different types of scrap metal but after researching the only way to know this will not be a previously weakened product would be to melt the steel down into bars again and then to work from scratch if this is the case i am unable to do this as i dont have the facilities for this. basically in a short winded way im basically asking any help with what type of steel to use ie flatbar for example also for reference i am from the UK i thought i would add this as i know terminology varies quite alot from country to country any help would be great thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I am old school and believe that before you jump that far ahead into sords it is best to learn how to forge metal. There is a rather short list of things yoiu need to know to forge anything. You need to learn how to place your body and how to move when forging. You need to learn how high the anvil should be for the thickness of material you are working on. Without these skills alone you are prone to injury. You need to learn what parts of the anvil support the metal when you move it and wot each part does to the bottom side of the metal.Same with hammers,, different shapes weights and faces do different things to hot metal. You need to learn how to manage a fire while working and learn wot is the correct heat for wot you are doing. Shortening, lenghtening, widening, narrowing, thinning punching holesand welding in the forge are basics. I do not feel that starting your learning process by obtaining a length of a steel suitable for a sord and then making it unusable for a sord is a good learning program., And after you do forge somethign it needs to be finished. That is a whole new game entirely. I believe that BAsher,lives in that part of the world and is really good.I have heard he takes a student now and then contact himby finding himin the user list and send him an e mail. Time spent with someone able and willling to help will save you a ton of time and frustration. PS there are no short answers for your questions. I just touched on a few thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Hi, wherabouts in the UK are you? We are having a Forge in at Westpoint (near Exeter) next weekend, why not come along and join us, any questions or problems maybe we can answer, or point you in the right direction. Dave Budd's threatened us with his presence on Sunday and he is very knowledgable regarding steels for knioves and swords. Have fun and good luck in your new venture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Good Morning, Some people learn to swim by jumping in the deep end, off a diving board. Some sink, some swim. I always found it more gratifying to start at the shallow end and slowly progress. I know lots of people who have done as you wish to do. There are MANY unfinished swords :rolleyes: . Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 there are a number of uk available steels that do a good job for making larger blades. the good news is that steel is cheap the bad news is that you normally have to buy it in 5 to 7 meter lengths. look up furnival steel . they sell EN9 (uk equivelent of 1050) which is an easy to use and heat treat basic medium carbon steel available in many sections . EN45 (high silicone version of 5160) is a great steel but needs a thermocouple devise to HT it properly as its austernising temp is 100 deg C higher than most standard plain carbon steel. cs70 also called en42 (uk spec 1080) is another good general steel available in narrow sheet form. If you are in the SE I have bits and pieces that might save you buying a load of steel. Look up British blades forum a UK based bladesmithing forum and bladesmiths forum in the USA . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Thanks for all you replies it gives me alot of stuff to think on. To Rich Hale thanks for you for sharing your knowledge with me from working in the crafts i realise that there are alot of basic skills like you said positioning and such that cannot be simply self taught, as you have said it would be best to start with the basics of blacksmithing so my plan is to start small making steel nails and such to get a feel for it and just play around with different shapes, i have also purchased a book called "The Artist Blacksmith: Design and Techniques" which i was recomended for learning the basics which im hoping should be a good read. To John B that sounds like great fun but sadly i live in Yorkshire so it would be a little tricky for me to get down there at such short notice, let me know in the future if you have anything like this planned as i would love to come along as i feel it would be invaluble to learn face to face from people who know the craft, plus its always nice to spend time with like minded people Thanx for the invite. To Swedefiddle i totally understand what you mean about learning to swim before jumping in the deep end but i am a reletively determined person and when i put my mind to something i will usually acheive my goal as i did with serving my time as a stonemason so i may not start with the most attractive swords at first but i there will not be any sword left unfinished lol. To Basher thanxs you have given me a wealth of information there like you said i did notice that you have to purchase large quantities but i suppose in the learning stage i would imagine i would go through alot learning. What i have sadly noticed is there are alot of people interested in this craft in the south east of england but not so many in my area which is a real shame would love to meet up with some of you guys and see someone who knows what there doing at work. Thanx to everyone so far for the advice and i think i will start small as rich said and get a feel for things if anyone can recomend any good reading material to get me started that would be great thanx again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 "i live in Yorkshire" On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at nuf of that."if anyone can recomend any good reading material to get me started" the complete bladesmith by jim hrisoulas and his other books,lots of knife,blade smithing forums british blades would be a good place to check out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 1, 2012 Author Share Posted July 1, 2012 Thanx for the advice mat lol i will have look at that book . i have seen it mentioned quite a few times now so i will take it as a good recomendation Thanx for all of your help everyone another questions would a leaf blower be suitable to stoak a forge my main concern is that it could be too powerful just a idea wanted to see if anyone had used this method before and how well it worked for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 As a simple blowdrier for hair is usually too strong; a leaf blower is way too noisy strong and expensive to buy/run. Now as bladesmithing has about 2000 years of "tradition" in the traditional method of beating out a heated blade with everything from low carbon wrought iron blades to pattern welded blades to cast steel blades (hammered from cast steel ingots) with everything from a group of strikers to powerhammers, (earliest I have seen documented was in the 900's, personal communication, Medieval Technology Conference, Penn State University) to even roll forming over 100 years ago you may want to give some thought of *which* tradition you want to follow. However the basic method was that a single smith did not do all the heavy forging---so start recruiting and training your strikers! I like an old 1070 steel myself often found in agricultural equipment where they needed strength. Old rock drills (without the central hole) can be used as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 i think although not the most traditional way to make medieval blades i will probably look at using 1050 flatbar and hammer out the tang and blade shape from that obviously using thicker steel for the pommel and guard, this is mainly due to i dont have the facilities to make steel ingots nor the knowledge eventually though i would love to got down that road to creating the sword completely from scratch by melting down the iron then working it but as i am only just starting out with this form of smithing i think it will be a little to advanced for me at this point in time. im hoping once i have some spare money to go on a four day course at a forge in glastonbury called the forge of avalon so i can learn more of the skills that i will need to advance to a higher level but for the meantime im gonna just be experimenting and if i manage to create anything then all the better. Thanx for the insite though Thomas i am alway interested to hear about the different methods used over the centuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Well pretty much the bladesmith *NEVER* was the one who smelted the ore in Western Europe. Pattern welding was superseded around Y1K by blades forged from more homogenous material---see "The Sword in Anglo Saxon England"; (but remember we have a lot newer research than Anstee's to base how pattern welding was done. I think the round rod method was pretty well been debunked) In western europe "melting down iron" was done in the 1700's a bit late for medieval blades. Did you really mean smelting iron from ore like in the bloomery process? It doesn't really melt in a bloomery. Now if you are interested in pattern welding you can weld up billets in quite primitive forges as did the celts, vikings, Anglo-Saxons, etc did. It's more a skill thing than a fancy set up thing---Anstee did his experiments using a cheese weight for an anvil! Also remember that when you get the question "How long did it take for a blacksmith to make a sword" the correct answer is that he didn't! He forged the blade but grinding/filing was done by a different person and hilting was done by a still different person and making a sheath was made by a still different person---it was much more like traditional japanese swords are still made with each step done by a different expert in the step. Having all the other equipment standing around unused while someone takes a blade through all the different steps was *NOT* economical medievally! (and people expect that a Master would let the grunt work be done by journeymen and apprentices anyway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 2, 2012 Author Share Posted July 2, 2012 yeah i totally understand what you have said about putting alot of the less skilled work onto the grunts this is similar in stonemasonry which is my primary occupation or was until i got laid off. Stonemasonry has stayed pretty much unchanged since the medieval times or atleast architectural stonemasonry as which is what i am qualified in. the only changes been the obvios mechanism of certain prospects of the job although alot of historic building wont allow anything other than hand crafted. But in stonemasonry the stonemason has his own labourer who does the less skilled work allowing the time served mason to concentrate on the work in which they are taught. i maybe didnt explain what i meant when i said creating medieval swords although the ancient methodology fascinates me and i am very interested in eventually learning these methods i dont feel that as practically a begginer to the craft i would be able to reeinact the ancient methodology. By creating medieval weapons i meant more the style but in a bespoke fashion keeping within the restraints of the historic artifacts in museums. i truly find your knowledge fascinating and would love to hear more about it as i love the history behind the ancient crafts that alot of people just take for granted today. i would love it if you had some designs for ancient forges and such i would love to possibly utilise them in my forge. a question for anyone who can help i have just today come into possesion of a old gas barbecue from a friend who was just going to throw it away so i thought i would grab it before he had chance and use this as a starter forge whilst i carry on building my stone forge. the thing i was wondering is if anyone else has used this method and how well it worked for them and if there will be any modifications i will need to make to it to make it more heat resistant. as well as this i have drawn up plans for a altered version of a box furnace which i will be putting up soon utilising a upright design with the piston been pulled up and down with a long arm handle for easier use whilst standing by the forge. if people see any problems with this when i put it up i would love to hear your feedback Thanx again for all the great help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 I started with an interest in medieval stuff too and finally got told "do it!" back around 1980 so I built my first maille shirt of 1/4" ID rings, butted though. Got started on hot work around 1981 and it's been my primary hobby since then. As I'm a raging bibliophile I've collected books on medieval and blacksmithing stuff starting before I started forging. I've also attended medieval technology conferences, iron smelting conferences and traveled quite a bit keeping an eye out for such things. I was part of a smelting team using Y1K techniques for over a decade---which is why I try to point out that a smith generally did not do his own smelting. (Though there are a few exceptions on remote farms in the Scandinavian area where it seemed like they did smelt and forge their own tools out in the middle of nowhere---and of course L'anse aux meadows...) A bit earlier than medieval but "The Celtic Sword" has a ton of metallographic information on how their blades were made. "The Metallography of early ferrous edge tools and edged weapons" is quite useful to see how complex they were making blades early in the medieval period. The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England is good not only for the information but for ideas on how to research something when there is a dearth of direct material to work with. Tons more but it's time to shut down the computer and go to the smithy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 yeah ive also done some chain maille i mad myself a chainmail coif with side opening ventail as well as a long sleeved maille shirt and chainmail legs also using butted rings in a 1/4 pattern for my knights templar outfit basing the style of some documentation from the 12th century on the dress of a knights templar that suggested they did not wear plate armour as alot of fictionaly information suggests with this i also just wear a archers style helmet which just sits on the top of my head as also suggested in the information. according to this and historians study this is due to the knights templar taking on a vow to be poor so there armour is simple. i also made a heavy cotton tunic out of a dust sheet as i thought the rough cotton would be more accurate that the close weaves we have today. i am hoping to eventually create my own templar sword to acompany this outfit as the ones i have seen for sale havent really fit with what i want as alot of them are far to over the top and to heavily decorated to be accurate as well as a standard short sword i am also hoping to create a long sword to acompany it also as i know from things i have read they also carried them but i have not seen anything similar on the market and as well as this a dagger to match so all three swords match as i would imagine they would as they would be smithed by the same blade smith. i think for my first project tho i am going to start by making some different tools such as different tongs for different jobs. my partner has also asked me to make her a viking cloak pin for her and this look simple enough to get me started. really fascinating information though keep it coming really enjoying learning more of the history. thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 There is nothing better than going somewhere, pulling out your blade and having someone ask - where did you buy that? - and you smile ever so humbly and say - I made it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 yeah thats exactly what im looking for it would be so satisfying plus that way i will have exactly what i want rather than a off the shelf sword that countless others will have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Exactly wot you want? I am not sure I have ever met a knife or sord maker that does that after years of long days in the shop. I and am positive I have never even heard of anyone just beginning that has done that. Now and then I make a knife that pleases me but as soon as its done I have ideas of how to do the next one better. Not tryin to douse yor fire. Just sayin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 i come from a craft background and although i agree with you that every creation is looked at as a opertunity to learn as well as improve on what you have falled short on i have never been any less that proud of every creation i truly beleive this feeling of pride in your work and want to improve is what makes a good crafts person. im sorry but i have never met a person in my craft that is not proud of everything they have created from the first to there most recent peice because in every peice is that pride hard work and sweat and tears and no matter how bad the end product is there is that memory of how things began and how things are now and in that they lay as memories to learn from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 This is a big part of how I live and work: Good is the enemy of excellence. Talent is not necessary for excellence Persistance is necessary for excellence. Persistance is a decision! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Yes but like perfect practice can only perfect a fault one needs to realize that persistence is the same. Persistence is useless without the correct procedures, diligent planning and thought. "No man ever reached to excellence in any one art or profession without having passed through the slow and painful process of study and preparation."Horace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Practicing a fault would not be perfect practice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Practicing a fault would not be perfect practice! I think you missed the point. What seems the right way to some with little or no experience and no interaction with those that have can be perfected with "perfect practice" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Practicing a fault is not perfect practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Tim215 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Last comment on this futile point - Perfect practice by definition is practicing perfectly - regardless the outcome. What you practice may not be perfect - but you will be perfect at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Wesselby Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 it seems i may have opened a whole can of worms with my reply all i simply meant by what i said was although a person is aware that there first creation may not be perfect they will still have pride in what they have acheived pride is what drives any good craftperson to perfection by having pride in every peice of work they do but yet still been willing to accept that it may not be the best that could possibly created no one person can simply create perfection in a matter of a few years many people in all branches of the arts and craft will never truly find perfection because perfection is a ideal that changes as you develop you skill. although i am new to the world of blacksmithing/swordsmithing i am not knew to the world of the crafts person as i have worked as a stonemason since i was 16 which alot of these lessons are indeed the same even after 8 years as stonemason studying ancient architecture i do not feel that i have acheived perfection but yet i still hold every acheivment and creation dear to my heart and have pride in them even if someone who has had 20 years of experience can do a far better job in half the time what drives me on is the knowledge that one day i will be able to acheive this the same. the persuit of perfection although a good driving force to acheive your goals is in many cases a unreachable goal that even in a lifetime may never be met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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