alex b. Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 greetings, i have read for an hour or so on some of the past posting, got allot of info an laughs. i think i have a plan, but thought i should share and see what all you others thought. i will be getting 2 anvils back in a week or so that will have new 4140 plates welded to them. anvils are both under 100lbs and i will have help getting them moved around { with some fabricated tongs to hold it, or a lever and fulcrum}. i plan on using a coal forge for all heating. i plan on using tempi sticks to get to temps for normalize, harden and temper. i have read that both water or oil can be used for quenching, so water is the choice and i have a 50 gallon container for it. i will agitated the water with a couple of paint mix paddles to keep the water flowing around the anvil. the normalizing and hardening seem straight forward enough, but the tempering might be a little tricky, as i need to watch the colors run during the tempering, and the anvil will be upside down and such--maybe not that big a deal-we will see. have any of you seen or done this process? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I would do the tempering right side-up. Take it very slow. When you see the first straw color get it out of the fire and start hosing the body. be ready to hose parts of the top as they reach the color you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I've re-heat treated a few anvils and have two comments... 1. You don't temper anvil faces - they are hardened and left alone. 2. That is not nearly enough water and the last thing you want to do is immerse - whether agitated or not. The best plan would be to have a minimum of about 300 gallons of water per anvil and a method to dump it quickly. The old factories had a dump pipe about 12" around that the anvil could be moved under - then the valve was opened and a column of water cooled the face rapidly. Immersion will very likely cause cracks (don't ask me how I know) and will also create a steam blanket which will not allow the face to harden properly. A falling cascade of water is the proper method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Would a 2 inch trash pump pulling from a pond or river give enough? Those can be rented by the day rather inexpensively. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) Would a 2 inch trash pump pulling from a pond or river give enough? Those can be rented by the day rather inexpensively. Phil About 25 years ago, I replated a 250 lb PW then hardened it with three 55 gallon drums, a couple of wheelbarrows and garden hose - we dumped the containers one after another and used the hose to cool it down enough to touch. Most of the face got hard but the area near the hardy did not - I was already worried we didn't have enough water so we did it that way because I figured the back of the anvil could be a little softer. I helped another smith harden a repaired 200 lb Trenton and he was determined to use a big horse trough - about 400 gallons, but by immersion. I counseled against it but he wanted to anyway. The face cracked in half a dozen places but we were able to grind out and MIG the damage and he uses that anvil to this day. I believe he was lucky that it did not spall or fracture completely. A trash pump might be big enough but the problem is two fold: 1) You have to bring the face down below transition temp quickly and 2) You have to keep the mass of the hot anvil body under the face from drawing the hardness. At the same time, there can be no steam pockets forming or the face can crack. A large volume of water applied quickly is the ticket for doing it correctly...how you arrive at that is the million dollar question. For example, I have always thought that a fire-fighting pumper truck would probably work just fine if you could use a 3-4" line. Edited December 24, 2009 by HWooldridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex b. Posted January 4, 2010 Author Share Posted January 4, 2010 i have a fire hydrant and a several thousand gallon tank on site, just have to go check valve. will let you know what happens, thanks for input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Charles McRaven used the local fire truck to harden an anvil he redid. Story in "Country Blacksmithing" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 i will be getting 2 anvils back in a week or so that will have new 4140 plates welded to them. How were the plates welded to the anvil? Thanks. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 How were the plates welded to the anvil? Thanks. Bob That would be my question too, welded around the edges or full plate to anvil contact by full root welding? - JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex b. Posted January 7, 2010 Author Share Posted January 7, 2010 That would be my question too, welded around the edges or full plate to anvil contact by full root welding? - JK yea, i put the brakes on for a little more info and ideas. getting together with others soon to get a best plan a, b, and c..... thanks so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazilla Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Interesting topic, came along just in time. I got a stake anvil made, the top is SAE 4145 (streetcar axle, I know the alloy from their specs), 65x65mm square, 550mm long, with a 60mm square shank. I thought to use an oil bath to prevent cracking. Is there some rule of thumb relating the size of the part to be quenched to the size of quenching bath to be used? Or wouldn't quenching it in a bath be sufficient to harden this? Someone told me about this flume method being used in the Refflinghouse factory, but these guys are using 45 pts carbon steel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drq Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Would a fast flowing river or stream work ? Find/make a place that you could control the flow running over/around the anvil ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 One thing not mentioned here is we're talking water-quenching 4140, right? That's a dicey proposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 No, not unless you had a dam and a sluice gate---you have to POUND through the steam jacket not just stream around it. Anyone got the Mousehole forge book handy? It mentions how high and wide their water works provided for hardening IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 One thing not mentioned here is we're talking water-quenching 4140, right? That's a dicey proposition. I read that Rob Gunter says one can quench 4140 in his Super Quench. I made some hammer heads and quenched them in 150 deg oil as per specs. The heads did not get hard enough to skate a file across, as in, I could file it. So, the next heat (1550) I quenched them in water. They were brick hard with no cracking. I immediately tempered them at 400 deg. f/2 hrs. So far, so good. JE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 One thing not mentioned here is we're talking water-quenching 4140, right? That's a dicey proposition.4140 welded to another chunk of steel to make a total of 100 pounds. Assuming we only need to cool a quarter of that "fast enough," we're still talking 10 BTU per second or more. I don't know of any oil capable of that. (Doesn't mean there ain't one, of course.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I have water quenched 4140 for years. I started doing it out of ignorance having been given about 20 bars of 4140 1 3/4" round about 12' long about 15 years ago. At the time I knew nothing of oil and air quenching I thought everything got quenched in water. I would say 90 % of the time you will be fine with no cracks. If the parts are thick without any thin sections or intricate shapes you should be OK. I no longer do this because I do not want to take the risk of ruining work I spent hours to make in an instant. A fast oil would be better and safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Yeah, you guys are right, in this section water should be fine. I'm just a little gun-shy of water quenching 4140 I guess. Usually I don't have any problem changing things with change in section, 4140 just makes me nervous. Probably from some bad experiences long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I wonder if you had a tank say about 50 to 100 gallons submerged the object and got a big pump with the outlet hose pointing down right on top of the submerged object would this break the steam jacket? I seem to remember seeing an old drawing from inside the Hay Budden factory. The anvil sat in a tank about 2/3 of the anvil height deep and they had a large pipe manifold spraying water on the anvil face evenly. I think it is in "Anvils in America". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazilla Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I tried it at last. Stake anvil (top portion 550mm x 65mm) heated up to hardening temp, quenched in 100 litres used motor oil (stirred nor shaken). The thickest section remained relatively soft, the horns were hardened all right. Overall only 47 HRC after tempering. Fair enough for a first, but next time I'll be using water hardening steel and another means of quenching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 As I recall McRaven made use of the local VFD's high pressure fire hose when he heat treated his repaired anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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