upset helper

[evfreek]

Hi. I remember looking at a blueprint for an upset helper. I don't seem to be able to find it now. Recently, I was over at a friend's house helping him make a rose. All I had was 5/16" stock, and this required quite a bit of upsetting to get it up to 5/8" for a smallish rose. Really, 3/4" might be better. Anyway, I recently attended an upsetting clinic, which was very helpful. I learned a lot. The instructor said "get it hot, hit it hard...NOT!". It is more important to have the heat localized, than to have it hot. And, it is better to hit accurately than hit hard. Either excessive heat or hard hitting will cause more bending and correction than it's worth. He emphasized the importance of "dancing the tip, and feeling the sting." In other words, let the hot end find its center by allowing it to bob up and down, and concentrate on feeling when the blow travels directly through the center of the rod to the chamfered tip on the anvil. Even with this instruction, which helped a lot, 5/16" to a 5/8" bulb is painstaking.

Is there a good tool design that can make this job a bit easier? I cannot quite remember what the upset helper was, maybe a block with a hole?

[Glenn]

The Upset Helper BP0281 by Irnsrgn is just as you described. See attached photo

[jimmy seale]

glenn. hit it till it fills up? good show capt'n !

[Mark Aspery]

Hi. I remember looking at a blueprint for an upset helper. I don't seem to be able to find it now. Recently, I was over at a friend's house helping him make a rose. All I had was 5/16" stock, and this required quite a bit of upsetting to get it up to 5/8" for a smallish rose. Really, 3/4" might be better. Anyway, I recently attended an upsetting clinic, which was very helpful. I learned a lot. The instructor said "get it hot, hit it hard...NOT!". It is more important to have the heat localized, than to have it hot. And, it is better to hit accurately than hit hard. Either excessive heat or hard hitting will cause more bending and correction than it's worth. He emphasized the importance of "dancing the tip, and feeling the sting." In other words, let the hot end find its center by allowing it to bob up and down, and concentrate on feeling when the blow travels directly through the center of the rod to the chamfered tip on the anvil. Even with this instruction, which helped a lot, 5/16" to a 5/8" bulb is painstaking.

Is there a good tool design that can make this job a bit easier? I cannot quite remember what the upset helper was, maybe a block with a hole?

I like what your instructor has told you.

There is a formula that I was taught to help 'stabalize' the material during an upset.

"Only heat 1 1/2 times the thickness of the stock"

So for 1/2 inch square heat 3/4 inch long section.

For flat stock heat 1 1/2 times the smallest dimension.

For 1 inch by 1/2 inch flat bar - heat 3/4 inch long section.

In a gas forge this means judicious use of a quenching medium to isolate the heat.

You can further stabilize a bar when upsetting the bar end by drawing a slight taper to the end (On the face of the anvil). This will thicken the bar and negate having to correct for any growth in one dimension for a couple of heats.

I'm not a big fan of the upsetting 'tool' per se as I find it can leave sharp transition points.

You could try forge welding a collar on for your rose hip.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Mark Aspery
Add photos

[HWooldridge]

I tend to agree with Mark and find it much faster to add material by welding or forge it down from larger diameter stock than trying to upset (I actually think it's called "upset" for a good reason since that's typically what happens to the smith - similar to "losing your temper"...)

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I also agree. It's the same when you're heading a nail or rivet. Great pictures Mark, as always.

[divermike]

when I took a class in Tennessee at the Appalachian Center for the arts, the instructor had us upsetting bar ends on a plate on the ground, by the end of the week, my hands were toast, I agree with the meaning of upset having to do with the act.

[Sam Thompson]

Some anvils have a step at the bottom of one side for upsetting medium length bars.

[Rob Browne]

Upsetting to get a small increase for welding is OK in my opinion but to double the section of a piece! I would just get a heavier piece and weld on the thinner stem in this case and save lots of aggrevation.

[John Martin]

Oh, I'll have to steel some of these ideas, and make an upset helper once I have some steel big enough.

[evfreek]

The Upset Helper BP0281 by Irnsrgn is just as you described.

Hi Glenn. Thanks for the confirmation. That photo brings it all back. I will give that a try.

[evfreek]

Hi Mark, HWooldridge and Brian. Thanks for the tips. Mark, you probably are familiar with the upsetting instructor, Erin. I was working at a friend's forge at the time and he had a pretty shallow fire. I am not good enough at forge welding to share a fire and anvil.

Mark, you mentioned that the upsetting tool is prone to leave sharp transitions. If the top is chamfered well enough, shouldn't it be pretty safe? I was trying to come up with another design that looked like the grippers on a power upsetter. This is not the same thing, of course, since one is using a hammer instead of a top die, but it should have a similar effect. The problem of upsetting with a vise is the scars that appear as the metal inevitably slips under the blows raining down on it :(

[evfreek]

OK, I figured out the hard way why Mark said that the upset tool can leave sharp transitions. I made a tapered die with a heavily chamfered opening to pinch the stock in the vise. Then, I hammered the top to do the upsetting. I am attaching the picture of the gripper dies.

There are absolutely no sharp edges. It is all made of mild steel anyway, so sharp edges would probably not last for long anyway. The end result was that the upsetting action was primarily confined to the end of the bar. I am not sure why this was the case. And the dreaded cold shuts appeared. The metal crumpled in sharp creases as it was being compressed. In a sense, the metal folded in on itself. There was no trouble with this problem when upsetting the traditional way by hand. I guess that any strong side force is immediately neutralized by bending, but with any sort of confinement, the metal has nowhere to go. It just collapses in on itself. It took quite a bit longer to make the rose stems with the new upset helper than without it, because of all the correction that was required, including a welding heat with flux applied to close the shuts. It is not a complete waste, since the gripper dies make an excellent vise jaw protector to keep the stem/hip from being marred when the petals are riveted on. I just hate to waste stuff.

Next thing I will try is the forge welded collar as soon as I can get a forge to myself.

[evfreek]

OK, I had a chance to try out the forge welded collar idea. It did not work too well. The big end was fine, and the collar closed fine. The problem was at one point I had a big fat cylinder on the end of the rod. The inside end had to be blended in with the base rod. This is not easy. As one tries to taper it down to blend in, the rod at the juncture is also getting thinned. Eventually, one gets to the unpleasant conclusion in which the rod is thinned excessively, and a notch appears that cannot be closed with either more flux or more heating. Any more attention overly thins the transition.

I suspect that there is one step missing from the collaring operation. The transition area must be pre-thinned, before forge welding the collar on. In other words, a wedge shaped collar (thinned on the inside) should be wrapped and welded. The photos above show a fine example of a blocky collar being welded on, but this does not address the smooth taper that is required for a rose hip. In a sense, this is exactly the reason that the lip of a scarf must be thinned.

Does this sound reasonable?

[Larzz]

How do I find the blueprint???
BP0281 Upsetting Forging – Upsetting Jr Strasil

The blueprints I see only go up to 200??

[Mark Aspery]

OK, I had a chance to try out the forge welded collar idea. It did not work too well. The big end was fine, and the collar closed fine. The problem was at one point I had a big fat cylinder on the end of the rod. The inside end had to be blended in with the base rod. This is not easy. As one tries to taper it down to blend in, the rod at the juncture is also getting thinned. Eventually, one gets to the unpleasant conclusion in which the rod is thinned excessively, and a notch appears that cannot be closed with either more flux or more heating. Any more attention overly thins the transition.

I suspect that there is one step missing from the collaring operation. The transition area must be pre-thinned, before forge welding the collar on. In other words, a wedge shaped collar (thinned on the inside) should be wrapped and welded. The photos above show a fine example of a blocky collar being welded on, but this does not address the smooth taper that is required for a rose hip. In a sense, this is exactly the reason that the lip of a scarf must be thinned.

Does this sound reasonable?

I agree with your observations about the upsetting helper. You only need a slight depression in the surface of the steel for it to be compressed by the upsetting action and turned into a cold shut.

I am attaching a cross section of a half round collar about to be welded to a bar.

Whenever you bend a bar, the surfaces will change.
There will be lipping and cupping and the edges will be moved relative to the center.

I am hoping that I have a photo to show this. I do! This is 1 by 1/2 bar bent over in a 3/4 inch bend and cut in half. Look at what has happened to the edges. The inner and outer surfaces have also curved, but that is a different issue.

As you wrap the half round onto the bar the same action takes place - requiring the closing of the edges on the side of the anvil. Make sure that you keep the stem off the anvil at this point or you will cause some damage to the stem.

Don't spent a lot of time on the face of the anvil trying to weld the collar on. Most of the welding will take place at the edge of the anvil. Avoid making your cylinder (too much).

I hope this helps

Just to finish this up a little, there was a thread about a scroll starter a few days ago. It was mentioned that as you form the scroll tool or jig, you should stop and dress the outer surface to rid it of the lipping and cupping. I'm hoping that my photo shows why that is the case.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Mark Aspery

[evfreek]

Wow! This is really clear. Thank you very much for the pictures. But the text is very helpful by itself: start with half round (or quarter round), watch out for cupping, stem off the anvil while correcting the cupping. I'm eager to get out to the forge to try it again, but my next chance may not be until open forge at the CBA conference.

[evfreek]

How do I find the blueprint???
BP0281 Upsetting Forging

[Mark Aspery]

My only problem is the transition, and I now know exactly what caused it and how to avoid it.

My reply is academic at this point as I have not physically done it myself.

I have shown the collar as a half round, but there is no reason that I can think of as to why the collar cannot be half 'tear drop' shaped if a tear drop shape is how you want the rose hip to look.

A bottom swage with the half tear drop shape will have to be made (I think there is a 'how do you make hardy tools?' thread on the first or second page of this forum. That will get you to making the blank stage.

The take some round bar - let's say 5/8 round and holding your hammer at an angle draw down one side until you have your full tear drop shape.

You may need to do a little filing to get exactly what you want.

This is the master that you will drive half way in to the bottom swage blank.

This has been a very good thread as it has linked an number of threads together. Why upset by hand, why bother to learn how to make a bottom swage, why dress the stock when making a scroll form or jig.

I wont be at the CBA conference as I will be at the BAM conference. But if you can go early and participate in the Thursday workshop. Speak to John West about your interest. He will help you with the bottom swage.

Thank you for posting the results of your efforts.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I made an example of a rose stem today while waiting on some pieces to descale. I started with 7" of 1/2" square stock. The stem took about 4" and the leaf and the forge weld took about 3". I started with the tenon then upset it in the vice with a monkey tool to get the hip. Then I just forged the rest down to shape. I went ahead and made a leaf to show how you can do a simple forge weld without having to forge scarfs. I thought you might like to see another approach.

[evfreek]

Mark, thanks for the tip on the bottom swage. I have not made any of these using traditional techniques, but have made quite a few with the help of my friend Mr. Miller. In fact, the overly thinned rose attempt will not go in the junk pile, but like a lot of other stuff, it will get fixed with a puff of argon and a little poke with the tungsten. Future ones should have improved technique, however. I'll try to make it out early for the workshop. I went to John's rose workshop and even donated some MAPP gas tanks last year.

Brian, I remember your "blob weld" technique from last year. I made a one piece rose with the wrapped end and the folded and forge welded leaf (with blob weld) this weekend. Thanks for the nice pictures showing the technique.

[Tom Lumpkins]

Good subject.

[double_edge2]

worst comes to worst, hire a new helper?:)