Archie Zietman Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Hello. It has struck me that with the whole global warming issue, or if you don't believe about that just the issue about how our atmosphere has gone from 220 ppm (units?) CO2 to 330ppm of CO2 in the air in the past less than 100 yrs proven due to fossil fuels and the speed of CO2 inflation rapidly rising so we might as well cut down on CO2 emmissions so that people in anywhere from 100 to 200 years in the future can stay alive because humans can't survive with 550ppm CO2 in the air issue, that smiths are still mostly using propane or other fossil gasses or coal. Okay, now the point of this thread:Are any of you lot also looking into eco-friendly (as in emmisions and also clinkers-which-are-pollutants-wise) forge fuels apart from charcoal? (e.g. wvo, other recycled oils, methanol, methane...) just curious. gasifier gonna be done tomorrow I hope. so there you have it. Archie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 I don't use one but the only thing that comes immediately to mind is an electric furnace - but - the electricity usually comes from fossil fuels. I know every little bit adds to the problem but I think you could shoot every blacksmith on the planet and not make a dent in global warming. Cars are the primary culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Zietman Posted March 12, 2006 Author Share Posted March 12, 2006 that's true, I guess even if it did make a dent in global warming all of the paperwork and jail time wouldn't be worth it. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Solar, I remember seeing plans in an old MEN (Mother Earth News) about a solar collector that was getting stuff to 1600 degF and thinking Hmmm that's gettintg towards forging temp... Now I live in sunny NM I may have to give it a try... Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Just remember NOT to stray into the beam area from the collectors to the focal point....:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredW Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Induction forge. They get the metal to forge temp in less than a minute. They are a bit pricey but you could build one. Though they are also a bit complicated but doable. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Seems to me an induction forge would use a lot of amps etc, thus be rather costly. Also it would only push the pollution out further to a electric pwp plant most likely an coal fired plant. Ralph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henerythe8th Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Hey Tom, Do you have any more info or links, etc. I went to the MEN web site and tried to search for it, but found a lot of info on solar cookers, etc. which are all VERY COOL (or hot) depending on how you want to look at it... ...but I couldn't find anything regarding a solar forge, etc. Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 They were not using it as a solar forge, they were using it to make power. I might be able to find the issue, back in the 1970's IIRC, but we still have 60 boxes of books still to be unpacked since our move and it might be in there. IIRC they made a collector from 1'x1' "mirror tiles" and had built a sun following circuit from a power window motor from a car and some pretty simple electronics. For a forge I would want something with another mirror at the primary focus to bounce the energy to a kaowool lined box with firebrick splits (you need both insulation and something to hold and give up heat to the metal). For greatest simplicity you could have a slot in the side for the beam to enter and then align it so that the beam would track from one end of the slot to the other meaning you would only have to adjust it's orientation every so often as the sun shifted---but the slot lets out heat too. For a better system you would need the primary reflector to track the sun and the secondary reflector to track the forge box. For a simple "proof of concept" I'm looking for an old wire mesh satelite dish that I can line with mirrors and see what I can get with that. Unfortunately, while we have lots of sun we also have high winds---sometimes up to 80mph in the spring and so most cheaply made solar collectors can't take the wind loads so I will have to have a storge place for it and right now I'd rather put the money into expanding the shop. Perhaps I could rig up a simple cylindrical collector to act as a combustion air preheat for my blown propane forge---I can make one of those wind proof---I have a bunch of scrapped O2 tanks... Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primtechsmith Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 I have a very good friend who told me the story on a gallon of milk. He broke that gallon of milk down and traced it back through the farm, the exhaust given off by the farmer's tractors, to what pollution the cows gave off into the atmosphere, etc......By the end of this I realized there is always pollution in any simple action. Even setting up a secondary type of forge would have an affect on the environment........Reason I say all this is the biggest pollutant of this planet is the human being. We can only try to be cleaner. Thomas......Mother Earth News........I have heard of some really neat things being explained in that publication. The solar forge idea sounds like a "Bright" Idea ! Peyton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Zietman Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 yes, lots of good stuff on motherearthnews.com I was thinking in terms of use of biomass as fuel such as steam cracking of manure and straw into a medium BTU gas (This is what I am doing now) and using it in a gas forge. or a wvo burner forge or biomass briquettes like charcoal or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkdoc Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 Hey Archie, what exactly are you talking about when you mention "biomass briquettes"? I'm not familiar with the term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Zietman Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 organic stuff ground up and squished into blocks or logs, for instance I've started taking straw form my chickens, adding water to it and crushing it into a pvc pipe with holes in the sides. The straw sticks together into long rods of dense burnable stuff which I dry, chop up into little pieces and put in a gassifier and burn as a gas. They could probably be used like coal or charcoal I am thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Rowlands Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 You've got to be kidding. To really make a dent in the CO2 emmissions you must prevent the next volcanic eruption. Its a fact that they put out more gases than what humans have made since the dawn of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Zietman Posted March 15, 2006 Author Share Posted March 15, 2006 I'm not suggesting that blacksmiths are going to make much of a dent, I'm just curious as to whether anyone else has thought of ways to use biomass in a forge. So don't be so skeptical and cynical Rick. shame on you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredW Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 I am willing to bet that the induction forge would cause less polution than a propane forge. It does use electricity and high frequency but it can run off a 220v circuit and since it would run just a few minutes a day compared to a few hours to a coal or propane forge it would be a lot cleaner and cheaper to run once you got past the cost of buying or building one. Here is a web page of a guy who has been working with induction melting, http://www.abymc.com/tmoranwms/Metal_Casting.html it also has some good links and other info. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 My forge used to echo untill I got more stuff in my shop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 The new mother earth news pales in comparison to the old version back in my day when everyone was into self sufficiency , save the earth , make love not war etc. etc. etc. but alas we all grew up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Biomass furnaces---you might be interested in "The Mastery and Uses of Fire in Antiquity" by Rehder (it includes plans for a "foolproof" bloomery in it) Peat has been used in blacksmith's forges. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogvalley Posted March 17, 2006 Share Posted March 17, 2006 Perhaps someone with more chemistry background can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that burning most anything will make CO2, including biomass nuggets and the other above listed fuels. My answer to conservation is simpler, I use a propane and a coal forge, but have solar electric power for the other tools. The house and pottery shop are also mostly solar(except our big kilns). I even back pack and camp with solar panels and rechargeable batt packs. The problem isn't what we burn its how much we burn, and that is a factor of TOO many people, not what we drive or what we burn.www.frogvalley.com/solar.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Zietman Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 but the CO2 from burning biomass is already in the carbon cycle. Carbon from fossil fuels is not in the carbon cycle and just latches onto oxygens in the cycle so that there is more CO2 than O2 and creates an unbalance in the carbon cycle and atmosphere. Biomass would not add more carbon but simply use carbon already in the cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authentic Iron Works Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Eco friendly? If you are burning any type of fuel you are contributing to to the greenhouse effect. Whether you use coal which is primarily carbon, or propane, which is a hydrocarbon chain you are contributing to the problem. The only difference between the two is that coal forges release more particulate and sulpher componds that create acid rain. Particulate matter entering into the air is hazardous to folks especially in the form of pm10 which is particulate matter under ten microns. I have been told that it's harder to get pm10 out of your lungs. Particulate in general is regulated by the Environmental protection agency. Sulphuric acid is created through combusting coal and is formed by combining oxygen with sulpher and Hydrogen-H2SO4. Okay, so where is this thread going? 78% of the atmosphere is nitrogen. When you combust coal or propane you are bonding o2 with nitogen in the form of No2 and No3. These compounds are usually refered to as NOX and are major ozone depleaters! So if you use a coal or propane forge you are still eroding the ozone layer. So if you think about the power plants that burn tons of coal or gas in a single day, your contribution is tiny. It's more of a hazard to your self than to others at this level. Also think about the carbiniferous period. Theory has it that the coal was formed in this period. Plants and tree-like organisms were abundant and thrived in an atmosphere that was predominantly co2. As these trees and plants consumed the carbon out of the atmosphere, the planet receded into an Ice age. So my point is that historically, global temperatures are either rising or cooling and not staying the same. I live in montana, and it's too cold to live here without some form of combustion year around. But perhaps if more folks used solar it might make a difference. Your contribution through smithy work is not the problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 Biggest part of the problem as I see it is the junk science that is used to promote someone's thoughts. Ain't pickin on you Archie. Will see if this posts and then go on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted March 18, 2006 Share Posted March 18, 2006 to continue, the junk science is a menace in my estimation. Volcanoes contribute more than myself, my family or my friends in smithing will EVER contribute to increased C02. Should alternative fuels be researched ? Of course. If you have a business that manufactures and one of the byproducts of that business is scrap wood, should it be used to heat the business in the winter ? Of course it should. I for one believe that forging steel can be done in 3 ways for my business (heat for forging). Coal, charcoal or LP. I was raised to think soil conservation, water conservation and re-use whatever else you could. Not much got wasted. 30 years ago, junk science told us that eggs were bad for us and that dairy was not good for us. The tirade could go on but not the time or bandwidth for it. be well folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie Zietman Posted March 20, 2006 Author Share Posted March 20, 2006 I am not saying that smiths will ever cointribute substancially to CO2, I am just thinking in principle, y'know, more sustainability than emmissions I guess, though the two do seem to be going hand in hand these days. I am more talking of not using fossil fuels, though the conversation is more towards global warming now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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