Air quality in the Smitty

[aaamax]

Is the reality simply that there will always be some degree of smoke/dust from the active forge indoors?

Every shop I have ever been in has the smell of burnt coal and misc residue near the forge.  Never thought much about it before until one of my kids pointed out that my clothes have that smell  afterwards and that it can't be healthy...

Does anyone have a setup where there is good air quality in your shop?  If so, how do you go about achieving this?

 

[Frosty]

It's pretty hard to avoid and unless your forge is making oily smoke it's not too hazardous unless it's heavy. Most of the combustion products I'm aware off are water soluble so your body can flush them out easily. Sulfur especially is more of a nutrient than toxin unless you're exposed heavily of course. If it stings your eyes, nose and throat it's "probably" the sulfur combining with the moisture in your tears, mucus and saliva making dilute sulfuric acid. Your body will metabolize it, use what it needs and you pee out the excess. 

Same for most stuff in burning coal. Just don't spend your days wreathed in smoke, okay? Even water is bad for you if you drink too much.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I've been in several members forges where the air is just as good as outside and you could eat off the floors. Good ventilation and house keeping seem to help.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[Nobody Special]

You don't have to have an especially smokey or dusty forge, although a lot of us do. The simple matter is that as much as I love smoke, it's bad for you. It has carcinogens, if coal, then heavy metals, and above all, particulate matter. There are some rather nasty studies that show about an additional 70,000 deaths a year in the country from respiratory issues associated with coal fired plants (and no, I do NOT want to get into that political argument. I used to run 22,000 ton coal trains into the largest plant in the country), or you can look at events like the great London Fog/Smog of 1952 caused by coal, that they now think killed around 11,000 people or higher (the original estimate was much, much lower because it didn't account for deaths directly and immediately attributed to the event). And then there's always our good friends carbon monoxide, zinc fume fever, and grinding particulates. I read a great microhistory of coal that talked about massively increased rates of cancer in South China associated with the practice there of roasting chile peppers over coal.

 

But on the other hand, you live in a world full of similar hazards without thinking twice about it. PFAS and organophosphates in your water, particulates in the air from power plants and your car, glycophosphates in your flour and bread. You don't fill up your gas tank or sit around a campfire drinking a beer (also a pretty decent carcinogen) and worry about what it's doing to you because you have beer breath afterwards. In the office, printer toner is especially nasty. For extra fun, read up on the pollutants from gas stoves (and I would still take one over electric any day of the week and twice on Sunday).

 

I agree with the above - use good ventilation and clean your shop routinely and you'll be fine. Avoid breathing particulates from grinding and excess smoke. Wear a bloody mask especially if you ever grind bone (and that is a whole different discussion). I assume you are using decent venting from your hood, and some people use exhaust fans, although when I had one indoors, mine drafted decently enough that I didn't bother. I did often open the side doors though. The joy that metal working brings me is far beyond the tiny amount of risk that it entails.

 

[George N. M.]

As a rabbit hole from Nobody Special's post I will say that a few years ago when we were looking at stoves as we were remodeling the kitchen here in Laramie we looked at gas, traditional (resistance) electric, and induction.  We did a LOT of research and decided to try induction (we got an induction hot plate from IKEA and tried that for awhile).  Frankly, even though I am an old gas stove guy I would never go back to gas or traditional electric.  Induction really works well.  The only drawback, and IMO a minor one, is that you cannot use any cookware that is non-magnetic, e.g., aluminum, ceramic, copper, etc..  

If you are looking at replacing a stove look long and hard at induction stoves.

And, no I haven't tried to heat metal to forge with it.  It doesn't get that hot.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[gewoon ik]

does it have to be a bloody mask when grinding bones? Or is a clean mask also good?

 

All joking aside, you make some good observations and nothing more to add.

[JHCC]

A solid second to what Nobody Special says above. I'd also add a caution to make sure that your gas forge lining remains in good shape, so that you're not getting ceramic fibers floating around in the air.

I'm also seconding what George says about induction cooktops. Our house came with a 1960s-vintage electric cooktop that burned out rather spectacularly (with no damage to anything other than itself, thank God), and we replaced it with induction. Like George, we're not going back. Just as sensitive as gas, capable of very low heat (for melting chocolate or other tasks that normally require a double boiler or heat diffuser), and MUCH easier to keep clean. Ditto on the hassle of not being able to use non-magnetic cookware, although I did realize a while back that I could use an aluminum Moka pot simply by putting it in a cast iron skillet on one of the burners. 

As for what I do in my own forge, I work in a two-car garage with the door open, winter and summer. When I'm doing something especially smoky, I'll turn on the big industrial fan.

[LarryFahnoe]

I appreciate the thoughts on safety and air quality. Although I do try to be safety conscious, reminders such as these are always worthwhile.

The topic of induction cooktops is intriguing to me though. We've used a gas oven/stove for decades & are concerned about their future availability when it comes time to replace what we have. I'm aware that the high end makers are coupling electric ovens with gas cooktops because the electric oven can be designed to provide a more accurate and even heat as would be valuable for baking. We don't have any aluminum stovetop pans, just classic cast iron and copper clad Revere ware. I would guess that the copper cladding is not thick enough to cause trouble for an induction cooktop, but since George and John are talking about their experiences I'm interested in what they may know.

--Larry

[aaamax]

All good info, thanks.

One would think that using a forge outdoors would be the best.  but every time I have  done that it seems like I can never position myself up wind...  kind of funny constantly dancing around trying to avoid the fumes.

On the topic of stoves.  We ended up with an odd piece some years back.  A range that has 2 el plates, 2 gas and an el griddle, coupled with an el oven.  never had seen both on a range before, but I will admit the that for simply boiling something up, el is quite handy. oTherwise, cooking on an el plate is no fun.  zero control.

18 hours ago, Nobody Special said:

Avoid breathing particulates from grinding

Good point.  I wonder how long the particulate matter stays airborne?  I do a fair amount of metal grinding and usually wait a minute or so before removing my mask.  To be honest, I truly like the way steel smells during grinding... LOL.  masking is relatively new for me, it wasn't until by chance I heard about the possible hazards.  

I even know of a few guys that are masked up during their forging.  That is a bridge too far for me.

[George N. M.]

A, when forging outside or standing around a campfire the best place to position yourself to avoid smike is at 90 degrees to the direction of the wind.  If you stand with your back to the wind you have turbulence and vortecies on your downwind (front) side which pull smoke back into your face.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

My time to edit and add expored quickly.  The time must be only a minute or two.  Here is what I added to the previous post.  G

Years ago I forged outside in the Wyoming wind and it was usually coming from my right (the door of the storage unit I used as a shop faced south and I moved the forge just outside the door when it was lit.).  I did not have a hood on my forge and the wind would blow fire fleas out of the fire and to my left.  Unfortunately, my left hand was on that side cranking the blower.  I still have some scars on the back of my left hand.  On the other hand, if you have a good strong wind blowing across the fire you don't have to crank the blower as hard to keep the fire hot.

[JHCC]

22 hours ago, LarryFahnoe said:

copper clad Revere ware

Hard to say without seeing the specific pot. The simplest test for induction compatibility is to grab a magnet off the fridge and see if it sticks to the pan. If yes, you’re good. Unfortunately, Revere used a nonmagnetic stainless steel for at least some of its production, so you’ll have to check each pan. 

It’s also worth noting that the whole point of the copper bottom is to help conduct heat from the burner to the pan. Since induction burners don’t actually get hot themselves (the electric induction excites the iron atoms in the pan, making them heat up from the inside out), the benefit of evenly distributing the heat of an external burner is lost. 

[George N. M.]

I will point out that the glass top of an induction stove will get hot because of the transfered heat from the cooking pot or pan going back into it.  It does not get as hot as a resistance type glass top but you still don't want to put your hand on it.  So, if you turn it on without a pot on it the stove top will not get hot.  It does have a red light to tell you that there is not a pan on the burner.

Also, I have a Duncan Hines brand sauce pan that my mother gave to me about 50 years ago which is made of 2 layers of stainless steel with a disk of copper sandwiched into the bottom for heat distribution.  It works just fine on the induction stove.

BTW, I believe the oven heats by a standard resistance element with fans for convection/air frying, etc..

I haven't done any imperical measurements but the induction stove seems to me to cook faster than traditional electric or gas.  I would say that on the "Power" setting it will boil a quart of tap water (temperature in the 40s F) to boiling (197 degrees at this altitude) in about 1 minute.

Induction stoves are a bit more energy efficient than a traditional resistance stove (5-10%) but are about 3 times more energy efficient than a gas stove.  Think about how much heat escapes a gas burner rather than going into the pan.  An induction stove does little to heat the kitchen up in the summer.

GNM

[LarryFahnoe]

Thanks guys! Very interesting to see your data on bringing a quart of water to a boil George. I've thought that the induction forge idea was pretty neat, but haven't gone down that route, but an induction stove might just be something that is both neat and practical! Will add induction cooking to the (ever growing) list of things to learn about!

--Larry

[George N. M.]

Larry, I just did an experiment and it is slower than I thought but still seems faster than gas or traditional electiric.  One quart of 50 degree tap water to a full rolling boil took 2 minutes, 40 seconds.  Bubbles started to form and collapse on the bottom in about 18 seconds.

G

[LarryFahnoe]

Well that beats our gas stove taking about 10 min for about 6C to come to a boil!

--Larry