Opinions please?

[Dixon]

Hello folks,

I've always been a coal guy and have never used any sort of gas forge. However, I picked one up at a yard sale for next to nothing several years ago and it's been in storage ever since. After many years without a shop, I finally have a space for it so I've started trying to figure the thing out. I haven't put much time into researching it yet but a quick search turned up nothing. I'm hoping someone here might be familiar with it. Any opinions, advice, and/or information are much appreciated. It's marked "Art Anderson's Pioneer Iron Works, Lolo, MT". The tag shows a phone number which is no longer in service, and I haven't found any other number associated with either Art Anderson or Pioneer Iron Works. With my extremely limited knowledge of such things, my impression is that it's a very basic unit. The burner design is noticeably less elaborate than the ones I've seen elsewhere, for instance. I'm totally prepared to be told that the forge may not be worth bothering with, since there are so many affordable options out there these days. Anyway, here are a few pics:

[Mikey98118]

You have a good start on a forge there, but it needs some finishing touches. The arched top half of a "D" forge is present, and seems to be well made, but its insulation needs to be protected with a flame face, after it is rigidized. From the photo, it appears that there is a gap between two insulating bricks, which will need to be filled in, unless that is where the burner is supposed to go. About the burner...it's just junk. You need to replace it with a $25 3/4" burner from Mister volcano, before they come to their senses and raise prices. I purchased one of them a couple months back, and they are a fabulous deal. The gas regulator looks to be pretty good quality, so keep that.

Finally, you should look around to find, or build a steel or stainless steel rectangular pan to set the top half of that forge on. Somthing deep enough to allow most of its area to be filled up with Perlite secondary insulation  from the garden department of your local hardware store. Use Morgan K26 insulating bricks, or ceramic fiber board over the Perlite, and spread a 1/2" layer of Kast-O-lite 30 over that for a flame face. Use bricks-even plain old hard firebricks- to stack as a movable wall against the back opening of the forge. And use bricks stacked 1" away from the front opening, as a movable baffle wall to push parts through. Of course, following all this advice takes time and money, but you can limp along with the forge, as is, while you make these improvements. Changing out the burner will pay for itself in about 16 hours run time.

[Frosty]

I had to run Deb to a dog rally and only just got back and deleted the reply I'd almost finished. Ditto most of what Mike said ,not that we differ enough to be worth posting. 

I do have some thoughts about your burner. NO, we don't differ about getting a good burner; from what I can see the one in it is worse than questionable. My suggestion regards how many burners you use. Have you calculated the volume of your forge? From what I can walk off with dividers it looks to be somewhere around 11" wide and 9+ tall by maybe 18" deep. Which by my guesstimate makes it somewhere north of 1,000 cu/in volume. The rule of thumb is, 1 ea. well tuned 3/4" Naturally Aspirated (NA) propane burner for every 300-350 cu/in. Which, if my guestimate was very close, means you'd need three 3/4" NA burners to reliably bring it to welding temperature.

I don't know what size work you do but if it were mine I'd lose the half brick sidewalls and lower it to maybe 6 1/2" - 7" high and make three each 1/2" NA burners or maybe two 3/4" NA burners. It'd be screaming HOT. Well, after you do what Mike suggested or the equivalent.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

So, if he ran a piece of sheet metal across the front and back openings at the same height as the bricks, and  a sheet across the bottom, he could merge both ideas, and fill in the pan thus created. That still leaves him needing to mount a burner or burners...

[Frosty]

That's work but I'm a keep it simple kind of guy. Just removing the bottom bricks saves a work and merges the forge floor level with the forge table. Replacing the bricks directly under the forge chamber with K-26 and give it a high alumina kiln wash flame face and you have superior forge with a great big heat resistant table you don't need to worry about overheating.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dixon]

As usual, you folks have been very generous with your expertise. Your advice sent me delving deeper into the subject (mostly on this site), and I'm starting to think that this thing is 'a forge' in the same way that a stack of lumber is 'a Chippendale chair'. 

[Frosty]

It's not a bad stack of lumber I could make it work. Maybe you could start from the top so we can offer better advice. #1 is or should be "what kind of work do you want to do? How large is the work you'd like to do? If it's a suitable size we just up the performance, EZ PZ.

On the other hand if you want to make blades I'd salvage or modify the materials and build a much smaller forge. 

The only think I do not like is the burner but I can offer an alternative that won't break the bank. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dixon]

54 minutes ago, Frosty said:

 #1 is or should be "what kind of work do you want to do?

In general, I'd call it "smaller and less ambitious stuff" than what I used to do. I always did a fair amount of knives, swords, armor, tools, and architectural hardware, all of which it would be nice to resume on some scale.  I'm not really interested in pursuing bigger projects anymore, like larger architectural pieces and the like.  Too old, tired, and stove up for that. The truth is that blacksmithing was never my all-consuming passion, the way I suspect it is for many folks. I got into it indirectly, as a supportive adjunct to other things I do. For instance, in silversmithing, it's pretty vital to be able to forge ones own tools, and historical saddlery and furniture and similar things require a lot of hardware. I once built a full size 19th century wagon from scratch, which a lot of folks would consider a primarily wooden object. It required, in fact, a huge number of iron parts, all of which I forged myself (couldn't have built it otherwise). As I mentioned earlier, 100% of my previous work was done with a coal forge, which I'm still equipped for. When the cheap gas forge unexpectedly presented itself, I thought (in my usual oversimplified way) that it might be cool to be able to quickly whip out some item I need for a project without having to fire up the coal forge every time. I'm still fine relying on coal primarily, especially on those rare occasions when I've planned well enough to get a reasonable amount of productivity out of a given session.  My goal isn't to have the world's penultimate gas forge, but it would be nice to be able to use it intelligently enough so that I don't watch it self-destruct through my own ignorance. In that light, I've been very interested in reading the material from you and others on this site discussing various approaches to dealing with a gas forge's innards, even though some of those discussions have been a bit contentious. Reliably achieving welding heat without wrecking things would be a definite plus. By the way, it didn't require any special expertise on my part to recognize that the burner on this thing is a joke. It's basically just a short chunk of rectangular tubing.

Anyway, hopefully that helps clarify what I'm up to, and I appreciate your knowledge and insight.

[Mikey98118]

Where you are, and with your background, I would advise that you simply build two of Frosty's "T" burners, and continue on with turning that good beginning into a completed gas forge; you will never turn back, and your coal forge will end up collecting dust in a corner.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I would say from your description, that forge should serve well with a couple of Frosty T burners, as Mikey said.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[Frosty]

I misworded that, I should've said, determine what size work you want to do in it.

One of the great advantages of a propane forge is being able to open the tank valve, light it and arrange the project and tools while it warms up and once you're done with the day turn it off and go have dinner. 

If you want to make that forge work it's just a matter of tweaking it. Plans for my T burners are pinned in the propane burner section and I'm almost always around to answer questions and help you tune it.

That aside I HIGHLY recommend you rigidize and put a hard refractory flame face on the ceramic blanket refractory. Putting a coat of kiln wash on everything will increase the reradiated IR and put a final coat of armor on it. 

We'll be more than happy to help you turn it into a good solid working forge.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dixon]

I really appreciate all of the encouragement and valuable information you folks have so generously provided.  If I decide to bother trying to turn this thing into something that's halfway worthwhile, I'll let you know how it turns out. The more I'm learning about gas forges, though, the more it seems that the biggest, or maybe only, advantage to this forge is the fact that it happens to be sitting here right now. Not much aside from that, apparently. It looks like two hundred bucks (or even less) might get me into something that's already better designed and would represent a lot less time and hassle getting to the 'adequately functional' point. As it now stands, I've got no time or work, and only negligible money, invested in this yard sale find of mine, so I'm wondering if I shouldn't quit while I'm ahead (or only slightly behind). Any thoughts? 

[Frosty]

So, what about this forge is causing you to think spending a couple hundred dollars on another one is a good idea? You have a lot of materials available now if you want a smaller forge strip this one and build another. It's actually pretty easy. Of course a plug and play forge is a fine option. IF it fits your needs.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Aside from some blade-smiths, or jewelers looking to forge tools in them, just about everyone who starts out with a small gas forge, ends up wanting (not necessarily needing) a larger gas forge. So, my advice would be to hold unto this good-beginning-of-a-forge, for when your ambition grows. Go ahead and buy that small gas forge, so long as it is a Mr. Volcano forge; the rest of them can always be used for parts, but not necessarily used "as is."

Why would that be a good idea? What you said about buying a gas forge for small bucks only holds true for very small gas forges, and only then if you make the right choice. Larger forges come at premium prices; there are no bargains in that market!

[Frosty]

A Mr. Volcano is roomier than it looks, one of the guys in our club brings his to meetings, It's an excellent entry level or that sized forge. All they need are Baffle walls at the ends to make them as good as it gets. 

Our club held a 2 day, propane burner and bolt together brick forge build clinic a couple years ago, pic below. It's small and cost just north of $100 each, member's price. The club bought materials in quantity, enough to finish IIRC 40+ forges. If a person were to buy the materials individually it'd probably run better than $150 in 2018 dollars.

They're about 150 cu/in and powered by One 1/2" T burner, come to welding heat in under 5 minutes and sip fuel. A number of club members are professional bladesmiths and only put one together to defray club costs and to use as portables almost all have stopped using their other propane forges except in special circumstances.

I'm not suggesting you build one of these, I'm posting the pic to show a good forge doesn't need to be fancy or large, the components just need to be balanced. Burner size x volume, Placement x shape, etc. 

What you have now is a good start but you aren't committed if you wish to try something else.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Dixon]

22 hours ago, Frosty said:

So, what about this forge is causing you to think spending a couple hundred dollars on another one is a good idea?

I'm not at all sure it IS a good idea. That's the point. My understanding and/or experience with the esoteric mysteries of gas burners (and gas forges, in general) are so woefully inadequate, that I can't even properly assess a good idea. I'm just wondering if there's a decent chance that I might have a little better starting point with an entirely different unit. It would undoubtedly have its problems, but might have fewer than the thing I've got. My impression, which is quite likely misguided, is that, if I were to follow all of the suggestions offered in this thread, I'd be salvaging a U-shaped piece of sheet steel and not much else. Even that has a large rectangular hole in its side, once the sad excuse for a burner is removed. I love tinkering with stuff as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure how much time, effort, money, and brain damage this thing really deserves. I'm sure it would be easy for you to turn it into something worthwhile, because everything is easy if you know how. I consider it easy to play the 5-string banjo, train a saddle horse, build and configure a PDC server from scratch, and bake a mean batch of biscuits, but not everybody does.

22 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

 

So, my advice would be to hold unto this good-beginning-of-a-forge, for when your ambition grows. Go ahead and buy that small gas forge, so long as it is a Mr. Volcano forge.

This is exactly the approach I'm feeling inclined to take. I'm betting that with a little time and experience with any gas forge, I'll have a better grasp on what ought to be done with the thing I've got, if anything. Meanwhile, it's not eating anything sitting out in the shed, and my cash investment in it (so far) amounts to less than one of my infrequent visits to the local saloon.

[Mikey98118]

You have it right. There is precious little worth knowing, that comes aside from experience. And probably first on the list, is knowing what you want.

[Frosty]

DRATS! I didn't mean to confuse or interrogate you. I got that you're completely new to gas forges in your first post. Asking questions is a GOOD thing, especially good questions. 

I was only trying to help you figure out how to evaluate what you have, not make things harder. A forge that size can be very handy to have around, I have one that's even larger. I almost never use it but when I need it it's right there. It's beginner guy silly too large, 19" square, 4 burners and the lid is on a jack so I can make it taller, say 9.5" high inside. Happily I designed it to have a variable volume and shape so I move a couple IFBs (Insulating Fire Bricks) and the chamber is 4.5" x 4.5" x 9" single burner or 19" long 2 burner. 

Anyway, were I in your situation, me being me, I'd put it out of the way somewhere for those times I needed a larger forge. I'd definitely put a better burner on it, probably two. A forge that wide and deep would be good for making scrolls, grates, etc. large items. If on the other hand you want to make knives, coat hooks fire tools, etc. Things that will fit in a narrow forge that's what I'd buy or build.  

Anyway, that was my intent, to suggest you look at what you wanted to make then decide. However as a general is this a good forge type question, It's okay and easily modified to make it a good solid forge. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Mikey98118]

As good as brick pile forges have become, thanks to tremendous steps forward in the tougher insulating bricks available now, and advances in flame coatings to protect their surfaces, and also in available burners, I wouldn't be surprised if brick pile forges become the standard forge for novice builders.

I will probably have to build one, just to keep from being utterly left behind by progress

Don't worry, Frosty. You can depend on me to complicate it to the max. Lets see... we can start with an elongated hexagon...

[Frosty]

Old news Mike, old. Dom topped octagonal yurt shapes with configurable openings and baffles are more recent, a couple years anyway. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[SlimW]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:44 PM, Frosty said:

A Mr. Volcano is roomier than it looks, one of the guys in our club brings his to meetings, It's an excellent entry level or that sized forge. All they need are Baffle walls at the ends to make them as good as it gets. 

Our club held a 2 day, propane burner and bolt together brick forge build clinic a couple years ago, pic below. It's small and cost just north of $100 each, member's price. The club bought materials in quantity, enough to finish IIRC 40+ forges. If a person were to buy the materials individually it'd probably run better than $150 in 2018 dollars.

They're about 150 cu/in and powered by One 1/2" T burner, come to welding heat in under 5 minutes and sip fuel. A number of club members are professional bladesmiths and only put one together to defray club costs and to use as portables almost all have stopped using their other propane forges except in special circumstances.

I'm not suggesting you build one of these, I'm posting the pic to show a good forge doesn't need to be fancy or large, the components just need to be balanced. Burner size x volume, Placement x shape, etc. 

What you have now is a good start but you aren't committed if you wish to try something else.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

boy is this a slick setup. I'm always jealous of how inventive other people are, like those door slides and the burner hanger.

[LarryFahnoe]

It is a slick setup indeed. 

Frosty, any chance that there is a PDF or otherwise available for that forge build? Would be a nice resource or reference to have should I want to build a small gas forge.

--Larry

[Frosty]

Uh, you mean like . . . plans?  Sorry, there are 8ea. full sized Morgan Thermal Ceramics K-26 insulating fire bricks, 2 split hard fire bricks for the door baffles and something like 6' of angle iron and  something like 100" of all thread. the flat bar, and some odds and ends. About 4 of us stood around Pat's work table playing with bricks and angle iron till we hit on this as the simplest one. 

Were it my design it would be a little different but this works a treat and I don't need one so I didn't build one to bring home. 

The real secret is using the high quality modern fire brick that will withstand the extreme heat and FAST thermal cycling of a propane forge. The old kind of insulating firebrick rarely lasted two sessions before breaking up. When I made a small forge and poked a HOT burner in it it was crumbling as it came to welding temp.

Use the good ones.

Frosty The Lucky.

[LarryFahnoe]

Okay, thanks Jerry. Will file the photo and description away & improvise from there at some point.

--Larry

[Frosty]

If one is at the next meeting I'll try to remember to get more pictures from different angles. 

Frosty The Lucky.