Japanese Kitchen Knife WIP

[White Fox Forge]

Hi guys,

These are some kitchen knives I have been working on for the past week. I thought I would post them and my process. I start with cutting out the pattern on some saw blades. I use saw blades that are made from 8670. I cut them out using a 14 inch chop saw. I use it almost the reverse way you use an angle grinder. I hold the saw blade and push it into the blade. DO NOT TRY THIS!!! I only do it this way because it saves me a ton of money by not having to buy angle grinder disks and because it is 3x or 4x faster. I have almost lost several fingers to this machine. From there I profile and bevel on my 2x72 belt grinder leaving about .040 thou on the edge. Next is heat treating in my kiln. I heat 8670 to 1450°f and then quench in heated motor oil. After this the blades go into two 2 hour tempering cycles at 400°f. I grind the blades vertically (blade pointed down) by hand from this stage to ensure a consistent cutting edge. It gives me absolute perfect geometry and a good finish off the grinder. You can see the way the grit scratches run on the bevel of the blade how I grind. I am preparing the handle material for glue up. To ensure a perfectly centered handle I drill them on the metal lathe.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post. I will keep y'all updated!

Emery from White Fox Forge

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I generally use the plasma cutter when cutting out patterns. Much...much safer than a grinder. Make the cut slightly larger to be able to grind out the HAZ.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails. ~ Semper Paratus

[White Fox Forge]

I do have a plasma cutter but I don't have enough electricity to run it without tripping my circuit breaker.

[White Fox Forge]

I glued it all up yesterday evening and the next step is shaping. I am excited to see gow it turns out.

[Scott NC]

On 6/14/2023 at 9:01 PM, White Fox Forge said:

DO NOT TRY THIS!!! I only do it this way because it saves me a ton of money by not having to buy angle grinder disks and because it is 3x or 4x faster. I have almost lost several fingers to this machine

  Sigh....  This has bugged me since I read it.  I hate to be critical because I have done things that could have hurt me or killed me, probably.  But never over and over on purpose.  How much time and money are you going to save getting those fingers sewed back on, if possible?  Your work looks fantastic but your method is dubious.  Upgrading your wiring for a plasma might be a better idea.

[JHCC]

Agreed!

[White Fox Forge]

I completely agree with you. I wear Kevlar gloves every time I use it. Still won't completely stop accidents but will at least keep my finger on. I was just talking to my buddies dad about rewiring my shop to 220. In my research it would easily be over $1000 but he said it should be about half of that. I hope to get it rewired soon. Thanks for thr concern!

Cheers!

Emery

[Frosty]

Emery: I only skimmed the pics last time I opened your thread and didn't read it. I'm glad someone else expressed their impression of your blank cutting technique, I wouldn't have been so polite.

To use a cut off saw the way you describe means you are feeding the stock to the blade in the same direction it's cutting. That would have you doing book work for a week the first time you pulled that stunt in a metal shop 101 class and probably get you 86ed for a second offense. If you keep breaking cut off blades in an angle grinder it's because YOU lack skill to do it well. 

Thinking Kevlar gloves will protect you is fantasy, The blade grabs the stock because you're asking it to and it WILL jerk you and your hand under the blade. Think that blade won't just pinch and crush it's way through whatever part of your hand you feed it? And let's NOT forget what the shattering blade is going to do to your arms and face when the stock cocks and binds it. IF someone is there to call 911 the EMTs will have to treat you like you went through a windshield.

Just the ambulance ride will cost several thousand, at least one if you live on the same block.

Is there any point in mentioning the long term health risk quenching in MOTOR oil is? Judging by your practices I think it's probably USED MOTOR OIL. yes? Are you wearing a respirator so you aren't sucking burned motor oil and all those additives into your lungs?

I've gotta sign off now or I'll get rude. PLEASE do some reading in the knife making section here, maybe join a blade making club, they're all over the country. Better yet take a metal shop 101 class so you'll at least have SOME instruction in how to operate tools safely.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[White Fox Forge]

Frosty:

If i rememember correctly I learned this method from Murray Carter; the renowned Japanese blaadesmith. I have also seen others use similar methods, not that this makes it safe or acceptable I have done my research and experimentation. You were correct in that I feed the material into the blade however I am cutting up large saw blades which allows me to keep my fingers away from the blade. The blade itself is a 7/64" × 14 inch abraisive wheel. The gloves I use are heavy duty cut proof industrial grade Kevlar gloves designed to stop cuts and abrasion. The gloves really work. They stop the blade without cutting me and I have had several incidents where they have saved me, big time. To respond to your statement about the angle grinder, yes I do know how to use one and am very skilled in it use. That was what I first used when I started making knives. I stopped using it because I kept using up blades too fast when I was cutting the hardened steel saw blades not of my "lacking of skills" as you put it. In this situation it seems a little low and unfounded to assume that someone that makes knives cannot operate an angle grinder.

I do use used motor oil as that is what I have available. It works well for me and I know countless others use it as well. Not everyone has access to commercial grade quenching oils such as Parks 50 or whatever you use for quenching. 

Don't be too harsh on people because you don't know their situation or the journey they have traveled to get to the spot they are at. I appreciate the concern that, although blunt and bounderish, it had good intent. 

Best of wishes,

White Fox Forge

[Frosty]

I suppose you text and drive because other people do it? 

I don't need to know about a person's "situation" let alone their "journey" to recognize almost willful disregard for basic safety or skill levels. 

As far as I'm concerned your worse offense is posting such B A D practices on a world wide forum where some unsuspecting beginner might copy you thinking you're some kind of good example.

Bounderish? I don't confuse the use of buzzwords or a thesaurus "vocabulary" with something impressive. Any time you post that level of unsafe practice I WILL call you on it as a warning to folk who don't know better than to take you too seriously. You sirra do NOT deserve kind, you deserve a swift kick in the butt. Perhaps moderation for dangerous content.

That's it from me. 

[White Fox Forge]

Thank you for your post. I am by no means a master at knife making. I am still learning. If you missed my earlier post i said that i plan on changing my method of cutting out blanks. I also stated that I am working to fix my electrical situation. Perhaps i should not have posted this method as it IS unsafe. From one bladesmith to annother it is greatly appreciated that you called me on my unsafe practice.

That being said. It does not justify the manner of your approach. You have attempted to publicly humiliate me by attacking my vocabulary, my intellect and my skill level. Your remark " I suppose you text and drive because other people do it? " was highly innapropriate for the circumstances. To answer your question: No. I would not text and drive. I am not even old enough to legaly drive. There again you assumed something about me. I suggest in the future you DM me if you have an issue with my methods. We can have a civil discussion about making knives without you throwing  degrading at me. Please don't misunderstand me. I accept and acknowledge that my post described  an unorthodox and unsafe method. 

Nonetheless it does mean something that someone with your experience has pointed out my mistake. 

Emery

[Goods]

Don’t be offended by harsh criticism of unsafe practices! Nothing said was intended to belittle you, maybe make you think. Black/blade smiths have been maimed and killed just from slips in attention to safe practices! We don’t want that to happen to you or anyone else reading this post! Safety is taken very seriously here… 

Keep it fun (and safe),

David

[Frosty]

I didn't realize you were so young, I should've realized it from your responses and verbiage though you write well. My bad I apologize. At NO point did I try to humiliate you I reacted to your excuses and name calling. Being told you're making a mistake or are wrong is in no way calling you dumb or a humiliation.

If you'd like we can start over and call no harm no foul. Or I can ignore you unless you post something dangerous again.

Your call.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[White Fox Forge]

Thank you for accepting my apology, Frosty. I would prefer No Harm No Foul as I do greatly appreciate your criticism and that you held me accountable. I had no business making excuses.

I will definitely check out that book. I have heard good things about it. Could you DM me more info on the table saw you mentioned? I am very curious as to how that would work.

Warm regards,

Emery

[Frosty]

Ease up there Emery, we're good as far as I'm concerned. I'm just a guy who's been at this longer is all, not someone special. 

Mr. Bealer traveled around the 3rd. world making art, mostly carving local materials and carried very few tools with him. He cadged rides if he could, did a LOT of walking so traveled as light as possible. Where ever he set up shop he scrounged and made do. An old table saw was always a prime find. Replacing the wood blade with a cut off blade was the main conversion though he had to do all kinds of things to to do that little thing.

It's reasonably safe, especially with recent models sold in the USA, they come with kick back brakes and scatter shields to debris doesn't get thrown in your face. Once replaced with a metal saw blade you have to change some basic techniques as opposed to cutting wood. You need the blade to be high so it's meeting the work at near vertical. This reduces the amount of steel it's in contact with at one time and presses the work against the table reducing the chance it will chatter.

If the work cocks and jams the blade it won't throw it in your face though you may catch pieces of the blade if it shatters. Wear serious PPE above the waist. 

The saw will have guides so you can feed the stock straight and steady, remember the push stick!

If you use an open, fan cooled motor the grit from the wheel and cuttings WILL kill it pretty quickly. Bealer rarely got more than a couple hours from a motor. Ideally a TEFC (Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled) motor is what you want they're designed for hostile environments, dust, grit flammable gasses, etc. Stuff you really need to keep out of a  motor. Yes? 

Failing that a shop vac set up to suck as much of the cuttings (dust) off the blade as it cuts is a big help and maybe rigging up ducting that seals the motor from the dust but lets air flow over it. I jury rigged a setup so the shop vac drew off the grit but some of the source air came across the motor and fresh air came to it through some old stove pipe. It's working so far but I keep my fingers crossed every time I start my belt grinder. I regularly blow it out with the air hose too. 

A table saw with an abrasive metal cutting blade is really straight forward, the biggest trick is matching blades to the motor arbor. 

Be aware it WILL put a lot of dust in the air and its all B A D to breath. Wear a respirator and bug goggles to keep it out of your lungs and eyes. I wear a welding cap so I don't have to worry about shaking some out of my hair when I take my goggles off. There have been times I've still been wearing goggles when I got in the shower.  Sanding wood REALLY gets my eyes and I only have two. Still have them I'm happy to say.

Be well brother, Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

The mention of a table saw for cutting is something up my alley.  When I was starting out, circa 1978, I didn't have any way to cut metal other than manually with a hack saw.  This was before angle grinders were widely available for home use.  I bought a portable/fold up saw table which was designed to have a portable circular saw screwed to the bottom of it.  I did so with a metal cutting blade and it has worked well over the years.  I think that it works better and is safer than an angle grinder because you are holding the work piece and pushing it against the abrasive wheel rather than controlling the wheel and motor against a stationary work piece.

The problem is that grit and cutting debris falls down onto the saw and eventually affects the bearing.  However, portable circular saws a fairly cheap and if you have to replace on every few years I don't think that is an unreasonable expense.

I don't use it much any more because I do most of my cutting with either a chop saw or a big floor shear.  However, the table saw works a treat for some applications.  White Fox's pattern for cutting knife blanks form a saw blade would work well.  BTW, I would cut off all the teeth befor I started on the blade blanks and I would consider drawing the temper in the saw blade first.  My neighbor gave me a couple 16" lapidary saw blades recently and I am thinking of doing something similar to them.

BTW, I agree with Frosty even though I might have not expressed it quite so forcefully.  However, sometimes serious safety issues need to be addressed in a way that catches the recipient's attention.  Better to be "loud" than to have blood spilled.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

PS  I've never had a blade shatter but because it is turning away from me and the front of the table most or all of the shards would go away from the operator.  Because the circular saw is up side down the blade is moving in the reverse of what it normally would be doing when cutting wood when you are holding the saw on top of the work.

GNM

[White Fox Forge]

I am thinking of converting my table saw to cut steel. It will be super useful in my shop because I do a lot of stock removal.

Here is the knife all finished up. The handle is dyed and stabilized oak, dyed and stabilized buckeye burl, purple heart and pine dowel. I found that turning the handle on the lathe in order to drill out the handle is far more accurate than the drill press. I use a four jaw chuck because I can control exactly where the hole is drilled. 

I am going to sell this along with some other knives tomorrow at a farmers market. Wish me luck!

[Frosty]

Pretty  nice looking blade. I was never any good centering a 4 jaw chuck it took me forever.

Frosty The Lucky.