leaf forming tool

[Duckkisser]

first I'm not sure if this right place to put this but it seems kind of like a swage block

i have an idea for shaping the metal for leaves, flower ect...

i am going to make a tool that goes in the hardy hole.  It will be a two-inch square piece that will be a cut off block.  on its 4 sides i was going to weld several different forms.  the first side has a ring on it for shaping leaf and to be used as a cupping tool, second side has two square pieces on their angles to form a deep v groove for making the center of leaf, third side will have two round bars side by side with a deep v groove between them.  and the last side will have a rectangle block with several round swage grooves in it from 1/8 up to 1 inch and a 60 degree. seems like this combination would be perfect for shaping any kind of form like leaves and flower on the anvil.  I have only seen something similar, but it just had two different size rings for leaf and cupping on the anvil. anyone seen anything like this? I'm wondering if this is a terrible idea or if it will be extremely useful? does this seem like it would be useful in the shop or are there some problems with it that I can't imagine?  would I better off with a different shape on one of the side?

[ThomasPowers]

Gingko Leaves?

[Frosty]

I'm not envisioning how your bottom tool works. If it's square then how do you access more than the top and bottom sides? A cube has 6 sides but to drive steel into it has to lay flat with the desired die up. How would that work in the hardy hole? You could make a holder and access all 6 sides.

Are you thinking of making top tools to match so you could do closed die forms when you wish?

How are you going to form the dies? Chase, Dremel, forge? If you forge the shapes you won't be able to make a die on the opposite side without damaging the first.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Duckkisser]

most of the gingko leaves that I have seen they stay flat with shaped and crinkled edges so does not need much in the way of shaping. 

I might not have described my idea as best that I could but it won't be a cube it will just be a flat square that fits in hardy. The center square ill use for chisel work for veining/cutting with chisel. There won't be any die use it will just be shapes welded on the 4 sides so that I can present the face that I need. it won't be flipped, just rotated in the hardy so I can use the face that I need. for shaping the leaf ect.. for example, if I am making a shape that I want a fold down the middle and flat sides I will use the square v if I want a shape with a fold down the middle and rounds edges, so they fold down like wings ill use the round bars.  if I need to make something with a bowl or cupped bottom, I can use the ring.

[Frosty]

Okay, I get the picture, you want to make a swage block type tool. There are lots of ways to make that idea work. I think I'd make the chisel plate a separate saddle so you're not working close to the sharp splinters and burrs chisel plates grow. A saddle can stay on the anvil and just slide out of the way, maybe include a bolster section as well. 

I think what you want to do is plenty workable and may really improve quality and how fast you do your projects. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

14 hours ago, Duckkisser said:

I'm wondering if this is a terrible idea

Yes. Well not terrible, but,,,   Lol, the best tools for a leaf are a flat faced square cut forging hammer, its cross peen, a chisel, a wood block, and your anvil face.  Once you have figured this much out, You will find that for more complex/detailed forms, you will know just what other hand tools to add, both hot work and cold. 

second, most multi-tools are more problem in the long term. I call them peanut-butter tools,,, they ain't peanuts nor are they butter.    

[natkova]

So he wanted something like jig?

It is posible but one thing i learned about blacksmithing is you allways need to forge one tool to make other tool.

 

[anvil]

Yup, and I was being tongue in cheek serious. I'm not a jig person. Freehand, your mind fills the space, but with a jig, the mind creates spaces to work with a jig.  Its great in a production setting but detrimental in a one off commission type shop. 

One of my first tools was a veining hardy. Worked great, especially at crafts fairs. Then I found out I could get a bit more if I freehanded the veins at the same fairs for no more demo time.  

[Frosty]

You speak like someone who doesn't use dies. What kind of veins were you making that you could do faster by hand than with a die. Then again, you adapted a hardy so I'd say you were making incised (convex) veins. Anybody should be able to vein a leaf with chasing tool type veiner faster and better than with a hardy type veiner. 

How would you make veins that stand proud of the leaf? Would you do it individually per leaf by chasing the leaf down around each vein?  What would you have to charge per leaf? 

I Make a bottom die using exactly the same process I use to vein a leaf with incised veins. A little clean up with a jewelers file and veining a leaf takes maybe 2 blows with my too heavy for general forging hammer. The lady who special ordered proud veins on her key fob didn't bat an eye at paying another $15 for making the die. She got what she wanted. 

Proud veins on fobs transitions into the stem more naturally and tend to be popular at demos. Wall hooks, scrolls, etc. incised veins are perfectly acceptable, nobody even thinks about proud veins. I haven't taken that die to a demo since the mid-late 90s

There are times a die is the ONLY reasonable way to do a thing. How to make dies was the subject of the thread. It's good you brought up the alternative to dies and the mental handicap they can become. I hand forge and vein leaves, even multi lobe ones, though I do tell folks I charge by the lobe. +75% per lobe IIRC it's been decades since I forged an oak or maple leaf.

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

Actually, Frosty, He was specifically asking for input, positive or negative, on a very complex and large hardy hole type jig to do multi-functions for leaf making. My input is basically dont do it. The Kiss principal rules especially for leafwork. Then I pointed out if your purpose is production, go for a simple leaf type jig. If your direction is commission, than stay away from jigs. 

I use a few dies quite a bit, but there is a difference between a die and a jig, or they can be one and the same. My tenon dies are certainly not a jig by any leap of faith. Like you have said, definitions, definitions,definitions.    

"What kind of veins were you making that you could do faster by hand than with a die." Lol, I almost qualified that above, but thought it would be too much verbiage. To answer your question, I'm speaking of a crafts fair demo. A good demo is ~30 minutes. No one gets bored and wanders off etc. I usualy make one leaf key chain in a demo like that and get more $ for it because of the demo. I can make any kind of leaf you want in a 30 minute demo,,, from the simple to the sublime.  And I make more money per. So, instead of doing samo-samo repeatedly using a leaf jig, I found it was a better demo when I didn't use a jig and made each one a unique piece,,, and a better value for their money.  

I havent done crafts fairs for decades, and I rarely do one off leafs because of that. My leaf work is incorporated into my commission work. Thus I can't really comment on your pricing. And, as I've stated above, I don't use jigs, so all my leafwork is one off. Even when its repetition. 

Raised veins? Incised veins? As I stated above, I do all with hand tools, not jigs.  

"There are times a die is the ONLY reasonable way to do a thing." Define reasonable, please.  Do you really believe that on a hand forged anything that statement holds water? Sorry, but not the case.  If you add "for production work" I agree.  

Heres an example from a garden trellis. They are flowers and butterflies, not leaves, but hey,,, Same tools for leafwork. And some leaves using basically the same type hand tools. If, I was a jig guy, these would not happen.

I want to stress that you may not start off doing details like this, but when I, during my crafts fair phase, quit using jigs and started using various hand tools, it led me to this. And its a great journey. Give it a try.

[Frosty]

Beautiful iron, anvil. I don't see a place I'd use a jig. If I had a bunch to do, say extend the theme into 50' of matching railings maybe a couple dies.

For what I see there a couple chasing chisels is all I'd need, my veining tool is a rounded chasing chisel. Using dies and hand work are largely exclusionary terms aren't they?

You're right the original question wasn't actually possible and I don't know what kind of leaves he wants to make, I don't think it matters. I took it for a typical beginner's question and I ran with it a little to point out how unworkable it is. I find it's better than just saying, "no that won't work." Think of it as a version of the Socratic method. 

The example of proud veins I described making a die for was a special request. The lady wanted a leaf that was viewed from the bottom and wanted that view of the veins. To forge those details by hand meant making a planishing chasing punch and chasing the leaf surface down leaving the veins proud. Instead I veined a piece of 5/16" plate including a long stem. Then I cut out and forged the leaf and stem. Preheated the die and brought the leaf to high yellow, laid it on the die with the stem in the stem groove and used a flatter and 8lb sledge to drive the leaf into the die. One heavy hard blow. 

Man I wished I had someone there to strike for me, I had to hold the sledge handle under my arm and grunt that heavy dang thing. I never use hammers close to that heavy without a striker. 

Anyway a little file work and some gentle incising of the top of the leaf to represent the top of the veins was it. That chasing punch was a chisel I blunted then fattened on the sharpening stone. Incising the top of the leaf on the wood anvil block curved the leaf nicely. I never did find out why she wanted that presentation of a leaf. I sure wish I had a pic of how she displayed it. Part of a diorama maybe.

There was no jig involved anywhere in the build. The only time I use jigs is when I need several pieces held in position while I work on them, say joining 3+ scrolls in a radial array, say to hold a table top or make legs. Using welding magnets on a steel table to hold them while I tack weld the joints before collaring or perhaps riveting them with a hammer and buck.

Just what do you mean by jig?

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I once made a veining die from a short piece of RR rail; in general it doesn't get used.

[anvil]

Heres pics of my veining tool. First hardy tool I ever made. I made it out of an old drill rod. Its slightly radiused. The idea was I could forge the center spine deeper and as I worked to the outside, the veins were less deep. It sorta worked. It was my first lesson in " too complex".  I don't know how many aspen leaf key rings I made at crafts fairs,,, lots. Using a tool like this or just a chisel makes for a good demo.

Frosty, The veins are all raised. 

[Frosty]

Different leaf but the same type of die I made. I made mind from flat stock and laid it on the anvil. Where the main vein exited at the base I transitioned it into the stem and it stopped just short of the leaf tip. 

Yes the veins stand proud of the leaf. 

You see what I mean by a die making veins that stand proud is much faster than hand forging them. No?

I agree, I stopped offering them as an option at all and haven't gotten but the one request. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

I'd like to see your tools and the finished leaf, It sounds pretty cool! 

As for "faster", Faster is needed in a fab shop, but a job killer when doing commission work. And the opposite is true in a fab shop. Speed is king and detail is a job killer for production. Thats why I said jigs have their place. Another way of looking at that(another one liner so beware) is fab/production is based on dollars per finished foot whilst commission work is based on dollars per finished oz.  

And that very principal is the reason contemporary construction generally refuses to deal with craftsmen. They expect the crafts to work under the same principal as the trades. Most are too narrow sighted to realize that this is not a problem if the crafts are part of the crew and start their work early in the job.  Alas, quality in contemporary construction too often means a black walnut photo veneer glued to chipboard sells for 4-5 times what a photo veneer of rough cut pine glued to the same chipboard will cost. I decided a long time ago that was not the racket I wanted to be in.  

Don't jump to the conclusion that I believe the crafts are being shorted and production is inferior, thats just not the case. In our age of industrialization, production is the bread and butter, whilst the crafts have evolved into the creme-de-la-creme. I am so glad that production has taken over making "spoons". I would hate to be a pre-industrial blacksmith working in a spoon factory having a 100 spoon per day quota,,, for ever,,,

See what I mean by speed is situational?

[Frosty]

We've had versions of this conversation before but what the hey. 

It'd be faster to make another leave swage/die than try to find the old one, I may have tossed it in a bucket as a scrap bit and used it for a gusset or something. 

What makes you think fast is bad? Do you stop for a cup of coffee after you pull a piece from the fire or do you move directly to the anvil, vise, etc? Fast is a good thing. Production techniques do NOT mean you are working on a production line. Production techniques are methods used to make a line efficient it isn't a definition of a type of work. They are techniques to make any job effective and efficient. Fast is good. IF quality, safety, etc. is not sacrificed.

Do you arrange your tools and equipment, pieces and stock so you're not looking or reaching for them when it's time? Do you face equipment so you don't have to walk around it to use it? So using one isn't interfered with by another piece of equipment, etc.? Keep the floor clear around work areas and equipment? You've heard of the "work triangle" haven't you?

Do you use ANY of these production techniques? If you make things they are your products, the smarter you produce, the better the product, the less it costs you, the less time it takes and the more you make. Both products and MONEY. 90% of good production techniques is minimum waste, time, materials, rejects. 

Please explain what is bad about any of that? 

Last word. "Production technique" does NOT mean "production line." They are two entirely different things.

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

I don't believe I said either fast or production is bad. Especially when taken so far out of context. And I think you are using "production" where what you are talking about has to do with efficiency.  Most important, We are talking tools, not setup.  

Apparently you believe there is no difference between production and one off commission. If not, how about speaking of those techniques and how some techniques work well for both, and some are better used for one or the other. Then we will be on the same topic. Then this topic will be of value to far more people here who may want to be familiar with the pro's and cons of their use for either direction they may want to pursue. 

I find it rather sad that with all your decades of experience, all your advice given, all the projects you have spoken of, classes taught, and tooling made, I have never seen any pics. Neither work in progress, completed, or tooling made and used to complete your work.  That leaf tool above is rude and crude and the first hardy I ever made. It served me well. I haven't used it in decades, and yet, even in my eternally limited shop space, I still have it. And yet, you made a leaf jig to get a raised vein  that was really complex with a major time investment in it to get just what you needed for an apparently a one off leaf shape.,,, and it went into your scrap pile.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess

 

[Frosty]

I've been trying to get along with you and here you go trying to start another pointless argument based on what you WANT a word to mean. 

Just WHO - DO - YOU - THINK - YOU - ARE? By what authority do YOU decide knowledge I pass on is or is not of value? 

I notice you have dodged every question I asked above. They were as direct, simple and clear as reasonably possible. I take your silence as concession. No? 

Why on Earth would I keep a single use leaf die? It's only remaining value was as stock in the drops bucket. It's not like it was the first die I've ever made, nor did it take more than maybe 10 minutes including filing relief on the veins. While maintaining a patter at the Demo. If I ever need another I strongly doubt making another will be more challenge. Not for me anyway.

Perhaps if YOU learned a couple more skill sets you wouldn't have to take . . . eh HEM potshots at people who perform more than one type of quality work fast. 

How about you trying to make a contribution to the forum instead of picking adolescent fights?

 

 

 

 

[Glenn]

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