Misinformation in the wild

[ThomasPowers]

I just stumbled over a "Best Anvils" site associated with Amazon.  I won't argue their ratings as "Best" depends on many things they don't take into consideration and at the end is often a "Ford" vs "Chevy" type of argument.  

However it does have such good information as "Then there are raw-iron anvils with a fire steel top."       Good to know that folk who don't even know what wrought iron is feel they can advise new people on anvils!

[Kozzy]

Heh...I usually see it called "Rot Iron".  It goes with the wenches that people are always selling online

 

[ThomasPowers]

"Rod Iron" is another craigslist favorite.  (And in some cases true!)

[Frosty]

You see a lot of "rod" iron for sale in the: Thrifty Nickle, Craigslist, etc. here. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[rockstar.esq]

In the construction industry, it's fairly common for commercial buildings with a parapet roof to have said parapet capped with bent sheet metal.  I worked with/for a guy that had a decade of experience who referred to it as "break metal" in our estimates.  I quietly corrected what I assumed to be a typo for about a year before he caught on and challenged me.  I had to print out a photo of a bending brake being used to make cap flashing before he would consider the possibility that he was wrong.  Even then, he felt the bending process was "like breaking something over your knee".  At that point I asked him if he'd ever seen sheet metal being bent...

The worst part of all of this, was that there were roofing contractors who would send in estimates with it spelled "break metal".  

Going off onto a completely different tangent, I knew a guy who collected a kind of pottery called Cloisonne.  He found that he could often find seriously discounted Cloisonne pottery for sale on ebay if he misspelled it.  Cloysonay, Cloiseney, etc.  

 

[ThomasPowers]

Don't we all search on common misspellings or alternate spellings: anvil, anvul, anvel, vise, vice,...?

[CGun]

Unfortunately, A lot of modern documentary's "experts" are just as ignorant... probably because they just search Wikipedia for their information. I remember seeing a test as to whether a sling stone was a dangerous weapon... The "experts" considered it to be inferior to almost everything they used, probably with the exception of a dry-rotted pokey-stick... Then when you watch the "experts" try to use a sling, you understand why... Wildly whipping the thing around over their head and clumsily letting the stone fall free like a drunk squirrel dropping a walnut. Yup... Ancients clung stubbornly to a vastly inferior missile weapon even when bows were easier to learn to use, because it didn't work. 

for the record, the most effective was considered the "greek" way to use a sling is in this video, ignore this guys capris and short shirt:

 

A good slinger could hit 200+mph with a lead 2 oz. lead sling bullet and a hit even in the arm or leg could break bone.... Good thing we have "experts" to tell us this just wasn't possible. Just like the experts who claim aliens built the pyramids because they can't think outside of "I need hydraulics to move anything heavier than 500lbs."

 

But the experts say the ancients were dumb... Its amazing ancient man could get out of bed in the morning without hurting himself...

[ThomasPowers]

So that greek method is a lot like using an atlatl---a way to increase the moment arm of your arm for throwing.

[CGun]

Pretty much that is all a sling is. A way to increase velocity based on the length of the lever... it is just flexible, unlike an Atlatl throwing stick. the nice thing was that a sling was easy to make and carry and ammunition was pretty much everywhere. I believe it was Cretan slingers were not allowed into the army until they could hit a loaf of bread at 50 paces repeatedly. Sounds like the experts are not so much. 

[ThomasPowers]

A "classical" Shepherd's weapon;  I'd expect a lot of them spent hours a day "practicing" just to while away the time.

The circular twirl would also give some starting speed that the "throw" would then add to.

I had a friend who once proved he could hit the broad side of a barn with an atlatl, the dart was still in the wall about 20' off the ground years later!  (Target had been 4' off the ground...)

[CGun]

It's really shocking how much extra velocity you get by adding just 18" to your throwing lever. I used to play with slings when I was younger and had a better throwing arm. Never got around to building an atlatl... but I used to be able to hurl stones 180-200 yards down my dads shooting range with abysmal accuracy. Always had better luck there with a rifle, but the sling was much more fun. Anyway... I hit his 25 yard backer once which was made with 5/8" CDX plywood. To my amazement that 2 oz. rock went right through it and buried itself in the mud behind.

I remember throwing 1" pipe couplings using that greek style and as the sling unfurls on the tangent of the swing, it imparts a high speed spin to the projectile, which on a random shaped rock gives a "bzzzzzzzzt" ricochet sound follwing the whip snap from the cord of the sling, but on a balanced pipe fitting, you could see through the hole in the middle all the way down range. Gyroscopic stabilization 2000 years before rifling was invented. 

 

now you got me thinking about an atlatl... I might have to build one. Unfortunately the NYS Dept. of environmental conservation won't let me hunt with one, but could be a lot of fun nonetheless. 

[Frosty]

I haven't slung a stone since I was a kid. We didn't do anything useful like target practice we were just slinging for distance and hitting maybe 150yds. +/-.  There are other videos of expert sling and atlatl shots. Of the ones I've watched none "twirled" the sling, at most one round and gone and these guys were hitting paper plate size targets at about 100 yds. at a decent rate, a 55gl drum never got away. 

There's one guy throwing darts with an atlatl taking down moving targets at 30-50- yds. and there's nothing special about the atlatl and darts. The atlatls are slim rods less than cigar Dia with not much of a notch or pin and the darts are dried and straightened saplings with a bodkin type tip and whatever feathers he finds.

I don't recall what the air foil is called but it's basically a tube with the typical air foil shape on the inside leading edge the outside is straight. As kids we used to roll tube paper planes and they were distance kings. They were easy to throw with a little spin and are incredibly stable. Applying the same principle to your slung coupler leads me to believe it'd be a very effective sling bullet. The other potential benefit of a tube sling bullet being that type bullet profile is called a "Ring Penetrater."

Frosty The Lucky. 

[CGun]

I know that you can actually throw a throwing dart from a sling as well. They tend to carry if they are slim and made of tungsten. Still, the official world record was made with an oblate stone at a distance of around 450 yards. This was done by a hobbyist modern slinger... that probably means in ancient times, someone who was practiced could likely engage archers before they could return fire. Given that the established range for an english longbowmen, with their superior bows, 1,500 years later, was effectively 250-300 yards, it seems probable. The sling stone was also pretty much invisible due to its size and speed so it tended to hit without warning before shields could be raised. 

The atlatl throwers I've seen videos of are truly impressive. I think the challenge of the atlatl is duplicating the flex in the dart everytime so that the throw hits home. Similar to the archers paradox. My guess is that where you think the dart will go instinctively and where it actually goes are two different things and can only be learned by many many throws. 

 

[Frosty]

Ever see illustrations of warriors carrying spears that had thongs tied to the butt ends? It'll boost throw range considerably, not atlatl considerable but quite a bit.

Throwing accuracy is a  matter of practice, If you have to think about when or how to throw, any hits are chance. When I was doing any shooting to speak of: shotgun, rifle, pistol, bow I never looked for a sight, FOCUS on the front sight? Nope, that was automatic I looked at the target with both eyes and just shot it. 

When I socket a rifle and establish a cheek weld the weapon is part of me, where I focus is where the bullet is going to hit. Because I shoot with both eyes open I have an extremely accurate range finder I don't have to interpret, in the circuit. Dad taught me to point shoot the second time we took my little Sister shooting. She asked when we were loading the truck, she maybe thought girls weren't allowed. Who knows? Dad and I both responded, "You want to go shooting?" about as close to harmony as we were going to get. She got her stuff and we went to the desert. 

Dad and I had a ritual, we'd unpack, fold and lay the blanket on the tail gate and lay out the weapons and ammunition. Then we'd set the targets at various distances, we never measured, he didn't believe firing at set distances help a person shoot in real life. We'd start with the light rifles, I'd bought a .22 a couple years earlier then up to the M1 Carbine, 3030, 3006, 8mm mag. then take a break and fire his .38 police special. I'd brought my 5mm pellet rifle if Shannon didn't like the rifles.

Welll, she didn't mind the .22 but didn't think it was fun and certainly didn't like pumping up the Sheridan pellet rifle. We were done with rifles and spending our traditional last 20 minutes firing the .38. I was a not bad shot for 14, got maybe 50% in the black at about 25 paces. Dad was shooting his competent 2" group in the bull. Shannon asks, Can I shoot it? Sure Dad runs her through: stance, hold, what to expect, cock, fire. Darn if she doesn't put one in the bull. Dad and I are impressed and singing her praise. She asks if she can shoot it again. Dad puts another round in the cylinder and places it where cocking will bring it to the chamber. Shan draws down, bang another bull, two petals of a daisy. 

She kept asking, "Can I just shoot it?" Dad starts to load another round, she says "No, can I just shoot it?" Finally a bewildered Dad says, "okay, you know how to handle it safely do what you want." Shan loads 6 rounds, closes the cylinder turns to the target and unloads the pistol at the target one handed  in maybe 1 1/2 seconds and makes a group a little larger than a quarter. 

Dad started teaching me how to point fire and my groups started getting reasonably tight, not not quite left shirt pocket at 30 paces tight but acceptible.

I've seen too many shooters, regardless what they're shooting that weren't "sight aiming" they were just shooting the target.

Yeah, another long Frosty ramble but there it is. Practice and you WILL reflexively put it ON the target. Human beings are Sight hunters.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[CGun]

I think girls have a innate ability to shoot because "man ego" isn't part of the equation. My wife can shoot my my old smith 39-2 9mm I bought when I was an armored car guard, and she could have qualified with the best shots of the guys I worked with after about 40 rounds downrange. Guys spend a lot of time trying to show off how manly they are with their guns... women just see them as a tool like a wrench and approach them like that....

Anyway, yes I think an ancient soldier would be much more proficient with his weapon than a modern soldier is with an M4 because his main jobs were to master it and follow orders... and he did it for 10-20 years, week in, week out. Not 1 week in boot camp with a bi-annual 1hour requal.

[Frosty]

Yeah, ego can certainly cause problems and I wasn't speaking for anybody but my immediate family. We never considered a pistol as anything but a home defense weapon and only shot to be good with it. Shan was a natural pistol shot. I was naturally good with one a rifle, iron or scope mounted. I was hitting soda cans at between 300-400 paces through a 4x Leupold on a .270 BSA. and probably 75-80%. A paper plate at that distance with the 06 and iron sights. 

Shannon's pistol of choice is a .357 Colt Python, I don't recall the barrel length but it was the stuby.

Agreed, marksmanship regardless of the weapon is a perishable skill shooting a couple times a year only keeps you familiar with where you keep it, hardly proficient.  If you have to not only fight people trying just as hard to kill you on occasion and feed your family the rest of the time with your weapon you're going to be GOOD with it or dead and your family in dire straits. There's nothing like strong incentive and constant practice to hone the skills eh?

Frosty The Lucky. 

[ThomasPowers]

When I was into knife throwing I'd do about an hour every evening with a friend and we had 11 different things we would throw as I was interested in throwing knives---not just one particular knife. So all sorts of blades from a throwing spike to a small bowie knife missing it's handle. The idea was to pick up a blade and feel it's balance point and how it would flip and be able to throw and stick it.  Practice makes all the difference.

[Anachronist58]

On 6/26/2020 at 4:37 PM, Frosty said:

I'd brought my 5mm pellet rifle if Shannon didn't like the rifles.

Frosty, I just started the rat season with a 5mm Sheridan Blue Streak as my back up. No rear sight, Fluorescent front post.  It is a real charmer.  Now I am having to wait for the neighbor rats to come around...... Not used to they eyes open sighting, but got a runner that way a week or two ago......

CGun, nice to meet you.  The Missus owns the S&W 19-3 .357 mag, been her favorite for 46 years, although I had to replace her original about ten years ago. Fits perfectly in her tiny hands, and I am happy with her group. I qualified during the cold war with an M-16, I do not know how anyone could miss with that ring and post.......

Objects thrown or slung?

Robert Taylor

[ThomasPowers]

I've always found a couple of pounds of ball bearings in a 2" bore black-powder falconette does a job on close in targets.  I've never managed to measure the grouping though...

[Anachronist58]

Is that ball caliber proprietary information?

[Frosty]

Sheridan Blue Streak it is! Sweet air rifle, hits much harder than a .22 short with the Sheridan, 8 pump max. It's a good rabbit gun. Mine has regular sites. I could wish for a peep sight. I LOVE a peep.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Anachronist58]

I was so eager to use the thing that I built a swage set to expand .177's till I got some .200's in. Three pumps max to keep from breaching the fence.

Rot Iron is my favorite kind!

Robert Taylor

[ThomasPowers]

Built from high pressure oilfield flowline pipe; breech threading, counter boring, touch hole and terminal ball on the breech plug done by a VoTech class back in the early 1980's, uses a handful of single F Black Power.  2" diameter bore. Inspected by a professional gunsmith and proved in with a double load.  Just a big boy toy.