Help me find out the anvil

[Anton Klimovich]

Good afternoon, dear participants of the group. I am writing to you from Belarus, I do not know the language, I am writing through a translator, but I am counting on your help. A few days ago, I came across a large and heavy anvil, the approximate weight of which is more than 250 kg (more than 550 Lb). I can't weigh it for sure, because I don't have such large scales.
Dimensions of the anvil:
Face width-18 cm (7.09");
Length-101 cm (39.76"), (including a slightly chipped horn);
Height-36 cm (14.17″);
The size of the square openings 40 mm (1.57″);
The size of the round hole is 27 mm (1.06").
The anvil also has square holes under the horn at the front and on the opposite side at the back, most likely for transportation. There is the same square hole at the bottom of the sole.
On one side of the anvil, the number 5 and 8 are very clearly distinguishable, which are located on the left and right respectively. In the middle there is something resembling the number 7 inverted to the right (it is less visible).
On the second side of the anvil there is a text that has been preserved very poorly, and in which only some letters can be read. Here's what I was able to recognize.
Also on the sole of the anvil under the horn in the center there is a brand, presumably resembling the English letter G.
The anvil will be used for its intended purpose, but I have a huge interest in finding out what this model is and what it is called, in what year it was released, what factory, how much it weighs, I am interested in the full text that is written on it, in General, any information that relates to it. I am writing to you because I hope that perhaps someone else has the same one, and you can tell me something.

[Dmitriy]

Dear masters, the author of this post is my good friend, he recently bought this ancient giant of the English form, but we can not determine its origin. If you have any information about this anvil and how best to restore it, please write about it.

Уважаемые мастера, автор этого поста мой хороший друг, он недавно купил этого древнего гиганта английской формы, но мы не можем определить его происхождение. Если у вас есть какая-либо информация об этой наковальне и о том, как лучше ее восстановить, напишите об этом.
Uvazhayemyye mastera, avtor etogo posta moy khoroshiy drug, on nedavno kupil etogo drevnego giganta angliyskoy formy, no my ne mozhem opredelit' yego proiskhozhdeniye. Yesli u vas yest' kakaya-libo informatsiya ob etoy nakoval'ne i o tom, kak luchshe yeye vosstanovit', napishite ob etom.

[Glenn]

Best way to restore it is to put it to use.  Hammering hot metal will shine the face.  Wipe the rest of the anvil with boiled linseed oil or any light weight oil to keep it from rusting.

Enjoy your new anvil and make beautiful things.

Лучший способ восстановить это - использовать его. Стук горячего металла осветит лицо. Протрите остальную часть наковальни кипяченым льняным маслом или любым легким маслом, чтобы оно не заржавело.

Наслаждайтесь своей новой наковальней и делайте красивые вещи.
Luchshiy sposob vosstanovit' eto - ispol'zovat' yego. Stuk goryachego metalla osvetit litso. Protrite ostal'nuyu chast' nakoval'ni kipyachenym l'nyanym maslom ili lyubym legkim maslom, chtoby ono ne zarzhavelo.

Naslazhdaytes' svoyey novoy nakoval'ney i delayte krasivyye veshchi.

[Anton Klimovich]

Thank you, this is understandable, but I would like to know the maximum amount of information about the Anvil: what is this model and what is its name, in what year it was released, what factory, how much it weighs, I am interested in the full text that is written on it, in General, any information that relates to it. Or at least who made it and what was written on it before.

[ThomasPowers]

It looks like the weight was stamped  using the CWT system; common in old anvils made in England. 

The leftmost character is hundredweights which are 112 pounds so: 5 x 112 = 560

The center character would be quarter hundredweights; which are 28 pounds and can only be 0,1,2,3  I'm *guessing* 2 so: 2 x 28 = 56

The rightmost character(s) are  residual pounds and can only be 0-27 (and can be two digits), so: 8

With that guess the total would be 624 pounds.  When an anvil gets that big the exact weight doesn't mean much so getting close is good enough.

How to restore it? USE IT!  Do not mill or grind any steel on it's face.  Wire brush off any loose rust and polish the face by hammering hot steel on it!

That last bit of writing was probably Warranted; I'd need to go through "Anvils in America" to get a good guess on the upper words; but you could probably identify the maker.

 

Похоже, вес был отпечатан с использованием системы CWT; распространенный в старых наковальнях, сделанных в Англии.

Самый левый символ - это сто весов, которые равны 112 фунтам: 5 x 112 = 560

В центре персонажа будет четверть сотни весов; что составляет 28 фунтов и может быть только 0,1,2,3 Я * угадал * 2 так: 2 х 28 = 56

Самые правые символы являются остаточными фунтами и могут быть только 0-27 (и могут быть двумя цифрами), таким образом: 8

С этим предположением общая сумма составит 624 фунта. Когда наковальня становится такой большой, точный вес ничего не значит, поэтому подходить достаточно хорошо.

Как это восстановить? ИСПОЛЬЗУЙ ЭТО! Не фрезеруйте и не шлифуйте стальные поверхности. Проволочной щеткой стряхните ржавчину и отполируйте лицо, стуча по ней горячей сталью!

Этот последний кусочек письма, вероятно, был оправдан; Мне нужно было пройти через «Наковальни в Америке», чтобы правильно угадать верхние слова; но вы могли бы, вероятно, определить производителя.

[Anton Klimovich]

Thank you very much for your response. I've never even heard of such a system for measuring and recording weight before. I couldn't figure it out myself. Is my anvil made in England and very old? Produced around the beginning of the XIX century? It turns out that I did not buy it for nothing at a distance of almost 600 km from home.
Do you recommend reading the book "Angels in America"? Maybe you will specify a link to the free version, and then I found only for $ 75. And that's more than the price of my anvil.

[ThomasPowers]

Well there is a bit more info I can give; the pritchel hole means it was made after the 1820's  So 19th century and not real old.  We generally say that to be "old" an anvil is over 200 years old.  A lot of smiths work on anvils 100 to 150 years old all the time.  Takes a lot to wear out an anvil! If I had to guess I'd guess that anvil was under 150 years old and pre 1900.

Yes the CWT system is really odd and a holdover from the old stone weight system used historically in England where a stone is 14 pounds. Pretty much only blacksmiths tend to be aware of it in the rest of the world outside the British Commonwealth.

Anvils in America written by Richard Postman is currently the best book on anvils, their types, makers, markings, that exists. Unfortunately it is focused on the anvils made and imported to America and so a lot of anvils used in the rest of the world are not included.  I would love to see a companion volume on Anvils in Europe including Eastern Europe; but AinA was a labour of love for my Postman for decades of research. It's a fairly recent book and still in copyright; so it will be free after more than 70 years from now---and I hope a lot more as Mr Postman is a great fellow! Please don't ask us to steal from our friends.

If you lived in America and were interested in anvils I would say you really need to own a copy.  It has a lot of information on some of the English anvils as well; but as it is you can ask here for specific information and folks will generally be happy to look it up. (I'm going to check on what you posed earlier tonight myself.)

[Anton Klimovich]

Thank you very much for the detailed answer. I didn't know the book was so new, and I wouldn't want to steal it, but I have a great desire to find out as much information as possible about my anvil. And in my Country, no one has such information, and I have no one to ask. I am very grateful to you that, despite my poor translation, you pay attention to me and spend your time. For me, with the weight of my anvil, everything became clear, and I would also like to find out its manufacturer, year of manufacture (at least approximate) and the text that was written on it. Thank you in advance!

I also do not sit still and read all the English-language information about anvils similar to mine. And I found out that they were made not only by casting but also by forging and forging welding. How can I determine this in my case?

[ThomasPowers]

No problem.  I'll look stuff up tonight and post again tomorrow---if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[Anton Klimovich]

Спасибо большое с нетерпением, буду ждать!

Thank you very much, I look forward to it!

[ThomasPowers]

Postman has recorded two anvils that had  Stourbridge, Warrant and Stourbridge WT on them with CWT weight markings.  However the maker  stamping was obscured and he only could make out E Son & Sons on one of them. (Page 78 in Anvils in America.) 

He told me that he's documented around 200 English anvil makers since he published in 1998 and so it could be one of them.  If you are really wanting to know contacting him directly would be the way to go.  Unfortunately I don't have his contact info as I would see him at Quad-State and ask him any questions I had.

[Anton Klimovich]

Thank you very much! You said that the postman's book indicated that these anvils had "Stourbridge" on them. On my anvil, I was able to read "bridge". As I understand it, "Stourbridge" or "Sturesbridge" is the city in England where this anvil was produced?
I in turn also searched for everything I could in English related to anvils and found an anvil similar in shape to mine. It says "Guaranteed" on it, and mine clearly shows "anted". Can we judge that these 2 anvils were produced by the same manufacturer?
In my case, the uppermost letters are very illegible, so it is impossible to tell exactly about the Creator.
What does the word "Guaranteed"mean? The book does not specify the years of manufacture of these anvils? Can something be written about the technology of their production?
It turns out that the research of your anvil with your huge contribution ends here, because in order to learn more, you need to contact the author of the book? Can it be found in social networks?

[ThomasPowers]

Stourbridge  in  the UK  was the location of manufacture. I did a quick look through AinA, (it's over 500 pages!), and did not find another "bridge" stamping mentioned.

"Warranted" was used by a number of manufacturers usually to indicate "warranted to be made from Best wrought iron or best tool steel face, etc.  So not manufacturer specific.  Guaranteed is similar. Generally different words would indicate *different* manufacturers!

The London Pattern Anvil is probably the most common design that was made in England so thousands were made by hundreds of different manufacturers. You need unique features---like a step on the front and back feet---to narrow down possible manufacturers. I didn't see any unique features on your anvil.

Construction: usually a real wrought iron body with a tool steel face forge welded onto it---why we say NEVER grind or mill the face as it is relatively thin!!!  The older the anvil is the more pieces it was generally forge welded up from.

Age: most likely from between 1830 and 1930 and tending towards the last half of the 19th century.

As for Social Media; I don't know as I'm NOT on it!  (When folks ask me why; I explain that I have a University Degree in Computer Science and so know too much to get involved in Social Media!)

[Anton Klimovich]

Thank you very much, you are very helpful. I can't even tell you how much I appreciate it, what it costs to view more than 500 pages of a book for a stranger!
I also wanted to ask if I can somehow help in finding the manufacturer of the brand resembling the English letter G? (Located on the front sole of the anvil under the horn in the center). I tried to photograph the fragments of the inscriptions, but I noticed something on the back of the sole in the corner. Or do I just see these letters everywhere?)))
I have photos of the sizes between the two front legs and the distance between the front and back legs.
The size between the two front legs is 39.5 cm (15.35″);
Between the front and back legs-41 cm (16.14").
Should I write to Stourbridge to try to identify or narrow the range of manufacturers of my anvil?

 

[ThomasPowers]

Anvils often have a mark indicating who inspected them or what group forged them.  Almost none can be associated with the actual people involved 150 odd years later and most can't be associated with a manufacturer.

If you can find someone in England that has a through grasp of the business history in Stourbridge they might have an idea of possible anvil manufactures and when they were in business.  However good luck! (Doing a little online research turns up Attwood and Nash as making anvils in Stourbridge.  Which is not very helpful as it indicates there may be a number of manufacturers in that location making anvils and all the names may not be listed!

[Anton Klimovich]

Everything is clear, thank you very much for your help, thanks to you I learned a lot! If I can find out anything else, I will definitely write about it. I also wanted to ask: you do not recommend milling or polishing the face. This is understandable, since a steel plate is welded on top, which does not get thicker from milling.
In my case, you can tell from the cheekbones that the plate welded to the face is about 1-1. 5 cm thick (0.39" - 0.59") at its thinnest point. How critical is this for milling?
I've also heard that anvil faces are welded to the surface of the face, and then the excess is milled. Personally, I do not like this method very much, since, in my opinion, welding will not have a positive effect on the face and its hardness.
But I still would like to restore the plane of the face, but I still doubt how to do it better. What do you think about this?

Всё понятно, спасибо вам большое за помощь, благодаря вам я узнал очень многое! Если у меня получится узнать что-то ещё, то я обязательно напишу об этом. Еще хотел спросить: вы не советуете фрезеровать или шлифовать лицо. Это понятно, поскольку сверху приварена стальная пластина, которая от фрезеровки толще не становится. 
В моём случае по сколам можно определить, что пластина, приваренная к лицу, имеет толщину около 1-1,5 см (0.39" - 0,59") в самом тонком месте. Насколько это критично для фрезеровки?
Ещё я слышал, что на поверхность лица наковальни наплавляют металл сваркой, а потом фрезеруют лишнее. Лично мне этот способ не очень нравится, в виду того что, по моему мнению, сварка не окажет положительное влияние на лицо и его твёрдость. 
Но мне всё же хотелось бы восстановить плоскость лица, однако я еще сомневаюсь каким способом это лучше сделать. Что вы думаете по этому поводу?

[ThomasPowers]

WHY?  What does it prevent you from doing?  A bit of a dip in the face really helps me when I go to straighten blades; I have one anvil that I use as I know exactly how much to hit it to get it to bounce into true. 

As for edges:  "Remember in use anvils are not supposed to have sharp edges---"Practical Blacksmithing";Volume 1, published in 1889; page 110: "For my own part I am satisfied not only that the sharp edges are useless, but that they are also destructive of good work. I cannot account for their existence except as a relic of a time  when the principles of forging were but little understood. I want both edges of my anvil rounded, not simply for a part of their length, but for their whole length.""

If the face plate was solid gold and any milling you did on it; the swarf was thrown away---how much would you think was a good amount?

[Frosty]

Anton: The high carbon face plates are Forge welded on, not what you are envisioning. ANY steel you remove from the face plate is years of useful life lost. A smooth shiny anvil face is more for looks than it is useful. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Marc1]

Thinking in milling the face of an old anvil, is like wanting to "restore" an old painting with a rag soaked in turpentine. 

[Frosty]

Nice analogy Marc! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Marc1]

Unfortunately my father's business partner did just that to an original Giorgio De Chirico. 

Just like Mr Been in his movie many years later. 

The fixation of "restoring" a tool like an anvil that is not and never will be a machinist die, never ceases to amaze me.

Next we will sell apples restored to a perfect spheric form by turning them on a lathe and dipping them in wax?

[Frosty]

I thought you were referring to a painting by a master in a gallery in Spain that was restored with good turpentine/rag scrubbing and then repainted. 

It seems to be a normal human thought process to assume you're good at things you don't know anything about. I hate to do it again but Dunning and Kruger said it best, with notations, cites, etc. 

I do it all the time, I've never seen a tool or machine I didn't reflexively start redesigning. Fortunately I almost never do it anywhere but in my mind or on paper. NARB is a rare exception but I knew in advance what the problem and solution was and only had to find the balance. 

Perfectly spherical apples have been around for some time, as have cube pumpkins you close the buds in a hollow form and they grow to fit. We did that with squash and peppers in jr. high school AG class. Coke bottle shaped zucchini anyone? The instructor wouldn't let any leave the class though, it was too easy to embed chips of glass breaking the bottle off.  Nothing he could do about kids going home and doing it. He finally stopped even talking about it and the one book with an illustration disappeared from class. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Anton Klimovich]

Dear forum participants, thank you all very much for your participation in resolving the issue with the anvil, I sat down, thought, weighed everything well and decided that you are right. So I'm not going to touch my face, just leave it as it is. I'll just clean it well with a wire brush. I also had completely different thoughts and I just needed someone to consult in order to make the right decision.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Anton Klimovich

[Marc1]

Not touching your face is a very valid recommendation to avoid the virus getting in your nose or throat.

Only kidding.

Considering that a large proportion of post on this forum refer to anvil purchases by prospective blacksmith, and the first though appears to be to fix what needs not fixing, there is a recurring lietmotif here. Many years ago i posted a photo of an anvil I bought and pretended i was going to weld and mill face and edges and sharpen the horn like a needle. A few got sucked in ... I believe Frosty was one of them

Don't mind sarcasm and jokes. Enjoy your hobby and make beautiful things. 

Belarus is short for beautiful Russia? 

[Anton Klimovich]

The Republic of Belarus is the official name of my Homeland. This state in Eastern Europe, until 1991 was part of the USSR, was called the Belarusian Soviet socialist Republic or Soviet Belorussia.
In General, the history of our state begins with the year 862 – the first mention in the annals of the city of Polotsk. Polotsk was the capital of the Principality of Polotsk, the first state formation on our lands (it was there that I bought my anvil).