Lone Wolf Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Hello, I’m just starting out, built a quick fire brick forge. Inside dim. H=4.5", W=6.5" & L=9", with one home made burner based on research. I have a 20# LP tank, now I’m not sure what regulator I should purchase. Do i need to consider a larger tank? Consider: this is a temporary forge for now, once I get going I would like to build something like the LP tank forge. I would like to progress into Damascus and forge welding, possibly a dual burner. This all said, I would like to buy a LP regulator that fits my set-up now and can be used as I progress. Thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 If those are hard firebricks your forge will be a real gas hog and not be a joy to use. Long time to come up to forging temp and long time to cool down to safe stowage temps. BTW not knowing which of the 100+ countries that participate her makes it quite difficult to suggest a regulator; all I can say is a "high pressure propane regulator going from 0-20 psi" will probably work. Of course not knowing anything about your burner makes that a risky call as well. Can you tell me what sized tires I need to buy for my truck? WHY NOT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) Thanx Tom USA......I understand the Tire analogy, but this is why I'm here, right. Because you can't ask what you don't know. I tried to give a good description, knowing xxxx well I would be lacking in technical data. The fire brick I'm using is the cheap 1" thick type from Menards, easily cut even with a bread knife. I lost my job of 30 yrs, so I'm just wanting to play a bit and share the learning experience with my 6 yr. old grand son. I will build something better once I'm back to work. As I said, I'm interested in buying something that will work now with this set-up, and with something better and maybe bigger in the future. What if the future forge is a double burner and I will be wanting to forge weld. Would the 0-20 still be a good regulator? I'm confused by the term "high" pressure, is there a low pressure 0-20 and a high pressure 0-20? When does it become high pressure? I don't want to buy a regulator the may be deficient with the next forge, thus the interest in investing in one that will work for the current set-up and also as I progress. I appreciate the reply, just not sure your specifying that the 0-20 will be good in the long run. Do I need to upload a pic of the burner? Edited June 11, 2020 by Mod34 Edited for inappropriate language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Pics are always a help. High Pressure is WRT the regulators used for things like cheap gas grills that won't put out enough gas to run a forge. They come in several different ranges so 0-20 psi, 0-30 psi, etc. The number of burners is not a factor in the pressure range; you could be using 60 burners and still run them at say 12 psi. Throughput is the factor and is not generally an issue with just a couple of burners. (Low pressure regulators may be calibrated in inches of water column with 14.7 psi being about 32 *feet* of water column if I remember my scuba correctly.) I've used 3 or 4 different regulators with my 2 burner gas forge over the last 20+ years---travelling with it seems to be hard on regulators; I don't know why people tossing anvils and regulators in the back of the pickup would cause issues... I don't forge weld in it, not lined for it---but I have accidentally melted steel in it. So plenty hot. Learning to give enough detail in a question so it can be answered correctly is definitely a skill needed in these internet days. At least I didn't ask you to take off your Aluminum foil hat that was keeping us from reading all the details that *you* have in your head. You sure were lucky with the 30 years. I had a job with AT&T Bell Labs and was starting to think about being able to take early retirement and opening a smithing school when that would be possible and then was laid off in the dot com bust after 14 years, 9 years in the next job and laid off, 6 years in my previous job and laid off and am hoping I can make it to at least 65 for medicare, (I'm an insulin dependent diabetic), in my current job---but it's funded through the state which is taking a severe revenue hit with the Covid-19 pandemic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 LOL...thanx again Tom, After 37 yrs. of marriage, I'm still not a mind reader. She just doesn't understand why. I will keep my snide remark to myself here. I wear the tin foil hat to protect my self from just that. Or to protect you from my visions. Ok, so I should be safe with a regulator from say Menards that says 0-20 for a heater? I was getting thrown off by the low and high part. They had one that said it was 0-20 for low pressure. I will look for the 0-30 to be safe. If not I will get the 0-20, and give it a go. Here are a couple pics, surely this will create more questions than it answers. But that will help me in the long run. I have .035 welding nozzle for the gas. Let me know what you think and any questions you have about it. The ball valve is a WGO valve. Joints are sealed with gas rated goop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Who is this "Tom" you keep referring to? I don't see him in this discussion.. We hit 36 years in August. Yup that looks like a very nice gas hog indeed! Any boiler repair places near you that might carry a fibrous refractory? My main gas forge for the past 20+ years was made from a section of Oxy welding tank, two layers of 1" kaowool surfaced with kastolite-30. Gets relined every couple of years it seems; but of course I teach college kids with it which is rough on all the equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 Well, One might think that ThomasPowers is a man named Tom, is it not Tom. Or are you suggesting Thomas is your name? I didn't ask you to take off your aluminum hat so I could read your mind. So please tell me the story of your name...........NOT, just your name please. Hmmm, college kids and tools...............dangerous now days. I'm not aware of to many that use the tool on their shoulders. I better be careful, a moderator may be looming in a dark corner to give me more penalty points in which will never expire. So the gas hog is in reference to the lack of thermal retention. Kaowool and refractory will be part of the new build. At first glance does the burner look ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Welcome aboard Lone Wolf, glad to have you. I'll evaluate your set up point by point. Menards or any big box soft fire brick will be low temp IFB (Insulating Fire Brick) under 2,200 f. for the better stuff. Expect it to crumble in a few firings even if you don't hit high orange, it's not intended for direct flame contact (Flame Face) and especially not propane flame. I know it's more expensive but Morgan Ceramics K-26 IFB is rated for 2,600 f. sustained direct flame contact while maintaining it's strength. Forget Big Boxes or even good hardware stores for refractory supplies, contact a HVAC supply or service company. If they don't sell retail they will know someone who does. Use the phone, email contact tends to be ignored if you aren't interested in pallet loads. Where did you get your burner? If you made it who's plans did you follow? Without specific details of it's current construction I see a few things that are red flags to me. It doesn't have a proper or close to it, air intake bell, that's just a coupler. There is an unnecessary fitting blocking intake air flow, if it's so you can use the set screws there are MUCH better ways. Mostly just doing a good job of drilling and tapping straight holes. I never mount a jet that deep in a burner but I don't do this like most folk. You didn't include a pic (stills PLEASE) of it burning so I can't say if the flame is good bad or close enough to tune. All in all it's not a bad first build but not a particularly good one. Below is from a club forge and burner clinic we held about 2 years ago. Cost to club per unit was under $45. Price to members $75, non members $95. Profit went to the club treasury of course. They were all killn washed with Plistex 900. The one in the pic took about 2 minutes to come to that temperature. The burner is a 1/2" T burner, made at the build clinic. We bought 0-20 psi adjustable "high pressure" regulators. One of the club members is a caster and gets an excellent price break or we would've used 0-30 psi regs. However, I've been using the same 0-20 psi adjustable for about 35 years and it supplies more than enough volume to run four, 3/4" burners. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Yes, I go by Thomas when in fact my first name is William; however nobody, not even my Mother has ever called me William! (Southern hill family, my Father's name is Thomas, Tommy to the kin folk and went by Tom when he was alive As the eldest son everyone assumed I'd be named after my Father so I grew up being called Tom-boy. When my voice started to change; we started having problems with folks assuming I was my Father on the phone and as he was in upper Management they would start telling me things I didn't want to know! So I went to Thomas. *Anybody* who calls me Bill or Billy obviously doesn't know me well enough to use the diminutive of my name anyway! (Actually pretty handy save at Dr's offices where I don't answer to William, Bill or Billy when they call.) My tinfoil hat is based on the work of Negroli! Sort of what the HRE would would have had made for him if he wasn't so limited by good taste and a restrictive budget! College kids are scary these days; many of them "hammer like lightening" (never hitting the same spot twice...). I have a dead soft hammer for them to use, also an anvil already missing the heel and finally when they want to sledge there is an old abused bridge anvil at the place I teach at for them to sledge on. Just before CV-19 hit I had started coaching the Bladesmithing club at the University as I felt they needed someone who knew how to forge assist them. As for the burner: 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating' so a shot of what it looks like burning in the forge would help! And I am not a burner Guru, like Frosty, Mikey and others. I've been using the same set of burners for over 20 years and when they finally couldn't be tweaked into usability anymore; Well a student/friend of mine gave me two T Burners to replace them with. (I hope to hook them up this weekend if I can get the fittings.) I apologize; you did say you were using the soft insulating firebrick. I missed that and as they look so much like the hard firebrick splits I have on hand I made a bad assumption. So it won't be such a gas hog; just friable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timoto Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Hi Frosty, Do you have any plans for the box forges in your photos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Welcome, Lone Wolf. Being the group's dedicated picky, this should be where I pick apart your work. Instead, I find it a pleasure to see all that innovation and forethought at first try. A 0-20 regulator should be all you need to run a forge. It's just human nature to wonder if that was enough, once it's too late to pay the extra few dollars; that's the real reason most of us end up with a 0-30 regulator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I don't think we actually made "plans", a couple sketches and sometimes argumentative discussions. We used a cut list and bought the steel and allthread in 20' lengths. Bricks were on two pallets in Pat's studio. I'll ask Tristan if he has the list or drawings. As built plans would be confusing, Pat's a professional artist and seems to have an almost pathological dislike of measuring things. The holes in the angle iron for the bolts were all eyeballed by guys who've never used an iron worker so they vary as much as an inch. We ended up laying them out on a table and picking the most similar for the assembly. One of the other buys cut the all thread so those're all pretty close. I'll see if anybody has pics during the build or at least one with the split brick baffles off. I THINK there are 12ea. K-26 AFBs and 2ea. 3,000 f. split bricks for the baffles / doors. Everybody up hear buys 0-30psi Regulators because 0-20 are special orders if available at all. That's in or near Anchorage, I can't say for the interior, Fairbanks, etc. the Kenai peninsula or the Pan handle, S.E. Prices don't seem to differ much up here so I'm thinking the "More is Better" crowd put the end to 0-20 regulators. That's just a guess I don't really know. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Lone Wolf: The mods don't have control of the message you receive, the eternal pointless penalty is built into the operating software. However it is a family forum if you can't or won't mind your language and attitude, especially with posts like your most recent they you will get your wish and be moderated or even 86ed. If you're banned nobody's going to remember you in a week or so. Nobody expects you to take a knee. What they expect and enforce are civil language and manners. I'm not connected to Admin other than being a long time member of the forum and will miss helping someone get their forge and burner running correctly but if you can't curb your attitude, not much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 I totally understand, but the second abusive warning was software generated? Oops, I meant to only delete my response portion of the last post as I couldn't send it. So it didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Lone Wolf, You are expected to be respectful and follow the site rules. The site is a G rated family forum. If you have questions, please read or re-read the Terms Of Service for the site. The term "Taking a knee" is considered a political comment, and will not be tolerated. Enough said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 What abusive warning? Abusive would've included names or vulgarity. Those messages were like what you will receive for making mistakes with dangerous tools and equipment. Direct. Admin doesn't do abusive if you push it that far they ban you. A quick edit before I submit the post. Taking a knee as political might be a bit of a stretch, what it really is, is an insult. Glenn can yell at me if I've abrogated him or some such. I've been yelled at plenty. Lets just carry on and let it drop shall we? My suggestions are based on a 3/4" mixing tube, my best guess at what you have there: Use a 3/4" x 2" or greater bell reducer for the air intake. Drill and tap for the set screws, one closer to the large end, one set deeper. 6 set screws will hold the jet more securely and allow you to align it correctly. Use a 1/4" scd. 80 pipe nipple to hold the mig contact tip jet. the ID is almost perfect to tap for the mig tip. I stopped telling folks what tap and drill to use, there are too many different ones in use. Buy the mig tips at a welding supply and ask the guys at the counter for the tap to chase out the threads. This is a common thing to need to do with mig welders so supplies carry the taps. If you buy at a Big Box store you'll have to determine what the threads are. I position the jet. (the open end of the mig tip) farther back from the throat, The throat is the end of the mixing tube in the air intake. However most people place the jet deeper, it's easy to adjust with the set screws. Buy a fitting to make up the 1/4" pipe nipple to propane hose fitting. IIRC 1/4" FPT x 3/8" MPT. (FPT is Female Pipe thread. MPT is Male pipe thread.) Put the 1/4 turn valve on the regulator rather than the burner. The less weight on the burner the easier it is to align and keep aligned. Being at the tank you can shut it off without getting close to the HOT forge. Your kids will LOVE turning it on and off and doing it correctly is a good thing. Also when shut down the hose will depressurize from regulator to burner rather than leak off over time. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 6 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: burner based on research. What plans did you follow? It looks to me the tip is a A/O cutting tip. An interesting burner though, first I've seen of that design. The piping looks like galvanized pipe, a bad idea as heated galvanizing gives off toxic fumes. Might want to research metal fume fever. If it is galvanized soaking the parts in vinegar will remove it. BTW: Every member of the forum can contribute to moderation by hitting the report post button, which alerts the moderators to questionable content so they can take appropriate action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 5 hours ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said: BTW: Every member of the forum can contribute to moderation by hitting the report post button, which alerts the moderators to questionable content so they can take appropriate action. Thanxs for the heads up, I'm very aware of the galvanizing issue, I assembled it for the pictures. I have a bucket of muriatic acid I use for just such parts. The design is based off several I've seen, just didn't have a reducer on hand, so I thought I would use a coupling. Pretty sure the tip came off one of my welders. I also understand the anyone can trigger a inappropriate post. But the abusive behavior based on the note is ridiculous. It felt like someone was looking for an issue. I don't think Thomas was insulted or took offense, but it's obvious I was irritated buy the threat of the mod. Of course that my opinion, maybe he did tip off the mods. But reading the whole thread, one should know better. I didn't come here to offend anyone, it was the mods that made me feel unwelcome. A real nice hello from them. 5 hours ago, Glenn said: Lone Wolf, You are expected to be respectful and follow the site rules. The site is a G rated family forum. If you have questions, please read or re-read the Terms Of Service for the site. The term "Taking a knee" is considered a political comment, and will not be tolerated. Enough said. Let me speak to this, for many years people have used that term, many people have tattoos of stars on their knees. This signifies they will kneel before no one. 100 years ago it was a very common statement. And because some people aren't familiar with the history, they only think it has to do with racism as seen so much on main stream media. I for one firmly believe in the statement as I've used it much in the past. I'm not trying to start an argument about it, I'm just stating my point of view and would expect, respect from others for it. People are just to soft now days and feel hurt to quickly. The G-rated family forum was infringed based on a slight slip of the tongue. Just seems a little harsh. This whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted June 11, 2020 Author Share Posted June 11, 2020 Frosty, Thanx again for the description of how to correct my burner issues. I will do some changing and post a pic of it before going any further. I agree, we should drop the other issues. I just wanted to be understood, I felt as if I were taking a bad rap for un intentional issues. Thanx again for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Wolf Posted June 12, 2020 Author Share Posted June 12, 2020 Frosty, Yes, that is a 3/4" mixing tube, should I leave the coupler on the exhaust end entering the forge, or just use the mixing tube directly into the forge chamber. I don't know when this will post as I have now received my 3 warning from the mods, they have to redact and approve it I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Each moderated event is also sent to my desk for review. If you make your comments in public, they will be answered in public. If YOU drop the references to warnings etc on the site, they will quietly go away. My suggestion is to align your anvil to north, and try to blend into the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Nope wasn't me. Being called with by Father's name wasn't disrespectful; just inaccurate. He's no longer with us; so wouldn't bother him either. Back to heating iron/steel up and *smiting* it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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