Damascus Qustions

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

So I am a newbie and am trying to make layer Damascus, but I don't have a welding machine or the money to buy one. Is there any way I can do Damascus without a welder?

Another question I have is rather then having a bunch of short thick layers of steel can I just have a few long layers that way I don't have to draw it out as much?

(keep in mind I'm a high school student and can't afford a power hammer and other expensive equipment. 

[ThomasPowers]

They have been making pattern welded steel for over 1500 years now; give you a hint: no arc welders in the medieval period!

So; You can wire the billet together using baling wire or rebar tie wire, I used to make one starting layer longer to make it easier to grab with the tongs for a handle. (Or even long enough to use as a handle if it was a mild layer!)  Or you could drill holes through the layers and rivet them together with 16 penny nails cut to length. Or you could make a set of tongs that holds the billet together while you start welding it from the other end.

Next: the longer the billet the more chances there are for a weld to not take or have crud in it, etc.  So if drawing it out is the problem---why not start with a bunch of layers so you need fewer drawing out and stacking steps to get the needed layer count?  I like playing around with billets made from Bandsaw Blades and Pallet straps and start with 20 to 25 layers.  I get discarded bandsaw blades and discarded pallet strapping for free and cut them with bulldog tinsnips---from the back of the blade toward the edge. Let the hardened part just break rather than cut it.

Get a parent to drive you over to my smithy some Saturday and I'll run you through doing a billet or two.

[Steve Sells]

I am slightly less ugly than Thomas so if you prefer you can come here for a lesson as well

[ThomasPowers]

So tell us about your forge and how much smithing background you have already.

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

well its very crude my forge is a charcoal grill I made from a portable charcoal grill that i used fire brick to make a v shape then I packed the outer layer with clay, I then have steel pipe that runs down the middle with a big vertical cut running down the middle so the charcoal has air running evenly in a line (the air is pumped in through a hair dryer) and my anvil is a rail road track

My equipment I have is an angle grinder. a crappy hand drill, a table mounted grinder, and various hand tools (saw, hammer, etc)

Thankfully my dads co worker has a propane forge he built but recently he built a new one and he's gonna give the old one to me (except it doesn't have a burner) which is great because charcoals 20 dollars a bag and it doesn't last long so I make my own charcoal but I'm running out of usable wood. Propane also doesn't smoke or leave ash so I can move it inside my shop and not have to worry about it getting rained on or having soot always on my hands arms and face.

I tried uploading photos but they weren't uploading 

Also I live in Missouri so I don't know if my parents would drive me

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

all I've forged is these three things. the knives don't have handles because I don't have epoxy or even a good drill to put pins in the handle.

[ThomasPowers]

Got any pine trees near you?  Back in the Neo-tribal metalsmiths we would make our version of Cutler's resin (see wikipedia) from pine sap and PHD.  It was heat activated.

Also the sharp transitions from blade to tang makes the knife much weaker as they act as a stress concentrator.

I don't think you are quite at the level where you need to worry about welding up billets yet.

Would your parents drive you to the local public library and let you try to ILL any books on knifemaking or bladesmithing?

You have to feel really sorry for Steve if he only looks a little less ugly than me!

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

no unfortunately no pine trees

I know the that sharp transitions are bad that's why I abandoned the small knife (maybe to make a pocket knife) and still working on the other knife

and also I don't plan on damascus just yet I'm just researching

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome aboard... sounds like you are off to a good start. Have you read this yet?   READ THIS FIRST  It's full of tips on how to get the best out of the forum. Don't be surprised if your thread is moved to the proper sub-forum like knife making where it will get more replies related to billet making. I see you have the picture thing figured out. We love pictures as long as they aren't too large.

What part of Missouri? I am just a stones throw from the MO AR state line. There are several blacksmithing organizations in MO & NW AR (BAM Blacksmith Association of Missouri and BOA Blacksmith Organization of Arkansas) if you can find one near you it would be to your benefit if you could attend meetings.

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

I live near Kansas City

[ThomasPowers]

Knifemakers Guild Show used to be in KC!  Long before your time unfortunately.   My wife is from KC; but we seldom travel that way nowadays as our kids and grandkids are in Arkansas and Ohio (And Okinawa).

Try to ILL "The Complete Bladesmith" and "Introduction to Knifemaking".  

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Might add that to your location profile, that way we won't dun ya when we need to know a closer location, just a general area like the KS City area will do. I'm pretty sure BAM has chapters up there.

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

Thanks a new library opened up near my house I'll look there 

[ThomasPowers]

Remember to ask at the desk about ILL if they don't have a local copy! (Inter Library Loan)

[Jclonts82]

This was my 3rd or 4th piece of Damascus. Worn out band saw blade from the hardware store that cuts metal, and pallet strapping that fell outside the right of way from a railroad track. All hand forged. 

[JPH]

Hello:

As others stated...you can simply wire them in place..I have been doing this for a wee little bit and that is what I have done from the start..I tried even using  SS hose clamps but using the techniques that I do they welded to the surface so it's been wires all the way..  I start out with billets 12" to 18" in length 1 1/4" sq and a layer count of between 60 and 75 depending..usually of 1095, L-6 and some ss heat treat foil for colour..gives great contrast by the way....

But I gotta ask...if you don't know really how to make a decent knife as yet (it will happen as you gain experience)..why would you want to make a $10.00 knife out of a piece of $500.00 steel??  Just curious..

JPH

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

I’m not looking to sell I’m just trying to learn Damascus 

[JPH]

Hello:

Apparently you didn't quite get what I was saying... You are getting in way over your head without knowing basic forging techniques..give yourself at least a good six months of steady forging..What degree of hammer control do you have?  Did you learn how to upset, draw, bend, taper. curve..make a bar thicker as well as thinner ???. ..you WILL need these skills (and a few more) when you start welding... You will also need to know the working temp ranges of the materials you plan to use..get too far apart on those and you will be fighting weld shears and worse..  Just take your time and do not rush anything.. That is the kiss of death as far as doing PW work..rushing.....if you want decent results you simply can not ramrod through the process... It requires a good bit of patience sometimes,.,even then..it can be a bit trying...

JPH

[Jaegers Forge and Foundry]

Alright I’ll take a few classes first before jumping into Damascus 

[JPH]

good idea..establish a skill set that you can use,,and believe me..even then you will constantly be adding to that skill set..I still am and I weld up some really weird materials sometimes.

JPH