Thejay Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 hello everyone, I am building a new gas forge and would like some insight. I am using a small metal drum, ceramic mesh lined with satinite for the top and sides and fire bricks for the base. I need to build up a flat surface to support the fire bricks on the bottom and was considering using a plaster of paris mix. Do I need to find an alternative to the plaster? If so, any low cost ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCalvert Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 You really need to read the consolidated forge building notes. It is a sticky thread. Then, read the forge 101 sticky (or the important parts anyway). These contain the information that you need, and you will be very happy that you did the reading (and will come out WAY ahead for it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Welcome to IFI... What MCalvert posted is about the best advice. Pictures of your set up will also help. Yes ditch the Plaster of Paris. I don't know what ceramic mesh is and fire bricks are not the best for a floor. Have you read this yet? READ THIS FIRST Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Welcome aboard thejay, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many members live within visiting distance. No firebricks! Ceramic MESH? Perhaps you're referring to ceramic wool refractory? If so current consensus is 2 layers of 1" 8lb ceramic blanket refractory, rigidized to prevent floating particles of sharp fused ceramics in the air AND to stiffen it and make a more solid shell. Then a layer, opinions vary of course, of a 3,000 f. water setting, high alumina HARD refractory. This layer provides armor, thermal, mechanical and chemical for the blanket. The last layer is optional depending on the hard refractory inner liner you choose. This is a kiln wash which provides the final protective layer and if you choose the right one is a strong IR re-radiator. The only real issue with your concept of a forge is the floor, fire brick, even split brick is a poor choice. It's a BAD insulator, about the same as limestone on top of that it requires a great deal of fuel to bring brick to temperature so your forge requires more time and fuel to get hot and keep hot. There are good alternatives. I like cutting a piece of ceramic blanket the width of the floor you'd like, feathering the edges for a smooth transition into the walls, rigidized and plastered with about 1/2" of hard refractory. DANG, when am I going to learn to just link to a post I've already written all this on. Oh well, not deleting all that now. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 I think the extra layer of ceramic blanket ( pillow) under the floor will be replaced by Morgan K26 insulating firebrick as a natural step up in choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejay Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 Ok, I now know I should have read the read this first tip. I have to admit I was getting pretty frustrated with the search tab. I have included a pic of what I have now, there is no label but it is 1" ceramic blanket. Still waiting on a couple of things, satinite and a couple more propane burners. I live in okeechobee FL and best as I can tell online ordering seems to be about the only way to get material I need for this craft. I am new to blacksmithing, I have made a couple knives, latches and a bearded viking battle axe that I am particularly proud of using a foundry that I made for ant Hill castings, it is proving to be to small which is why I'm building this new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 That's what I was afraid of, the metal drum is way too big for a forge. How many burners were you planning to use and what type of work are in the near future? A 5 gal bucket would be better or a 20 pound propane tank or freon tank will pretty much get you where you need to be. If you google Wayne coe artist blacksmith (member here) he has a good set of plans for building a propane forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Please read the Forges 101 thread. Your 2700 F firebricks would make a good table top on which to stand your forge, and could just be tolerable on a forge floor, but will become a total heat sink inside the forge, beyond that point. We want to help you, but we can't fix problems as fast as you can generate them, if you don't at least learn the basics before starting to build. That would be a shame, since you seem to be a "go get the job done" kinda guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejay Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 I do have other options. I know it looks like it in the first pic but it's not a 55 gallon drum it is considerably smaller. Even still you my be right it is rather large which is why I was thinking about building up the bottom, I figured by making a flat surface for the bottom I would loose a lot of space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejay Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 I do appreciate all the insight, I am currently reading the forges 101 but it is a long read, and you would be correct I took the D-I-S-C personality assessment and I am D but my secondary is C so I'm going to get it done and I prefer to do It right. I'm thinking that the bricks will make the variable openings easier to achieve by either stacking them or maybe building a rack that I can slide them on to open and close the ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejay Posted March 24, 2019 Author Share Posted March 24, 2019 I'm planning on 3 burners and I'm going to make everything featured on forged in fire. That is what peaked my interests in the first place. If it is airing when I feel I'm ready you will see me on the show. Mabe they will have another amiture hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Like Frosty said, use an additional layer of wool to build up your floor. Be sure to rigidize it with a commercial rigidizer or fumed silica in water. Fire bricks crack into pieces when used as a door for a forge. Inside a forge they die a fast death. Save yourself a headache and trust Frosty and Mikey who have forgetten more than most of us know. My knowledge comes entirely from the people in this forum but I did post a summary of the information I found in the different threads in a separate post. I used kastolite, not satanite, but otherwise the information may be useful to you. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/61288-my-consolidated-notes-for-new-forge-builders/?tab=comments#comment-640327 Lou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Thejay said: I'm thinking that the bricks will make the variable openings easier to achieve by either stacking them or maybe building a rack that I can slide them on to open and close the ends. My bad; had assumed the brick was meant for inside the forge. For a baffle wall they should work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 You don't really want to model your equipment on what you see on FIF, it's an entertainment program NOT a bladesmithing tutorial. The forges they're using are dramatic, not practical, look how many of the finalists harden swords in single burner forges. You can only work about 6" at a time and keeping steel above critical temperature without refining the structure leads to grain growth and embrittlement while decarburizing it. It's a lose lose. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCalvert Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 I love FIF for bringing so much interest into bladesmithing! I think it's really good for the knife community overall. To the OP, I have fire bricks (soft) inside my forge taking up the bottom two inches. They are on the outside of the insulation, and are only there to decrease the volume of the chamber and make a small flat area so that the cross section is not circular but vaulted (thanks frosty). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejay Posted March 25, 2019 Author Share Posted March 25, 2019 Thanks for all the input, I'm going to order more material and get it right! I will put pics up when I am able to finish it, till then I will be hammering away with what I have. Just like the FIF shows, the level of comerodery in this craft is amazing! I'm impressed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louspinuso Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/23/2019 at 8:38 PM, Lou L said: Save yourself a headache and trust Frosty and Mikey who have forgetten more than most of us know. This is me on any given day when dealing with most of the younger IT guys. I used to think that if I didn't keep up the younger guys would eat me alive as I got older. Turns out companies and other people have made networks/servers/OS's and pretty much every other technical thing I deal with on a daily basis so much easier to use, that the new guys very rarely learn the basics and can't understand where something is failing along the chain in the network. But getting back to forges, seriously, trust those two. They are extremely helpful and knowledgeable. The experience they're willing to share here is a blessing and if they tell you something is a bad idea, I'd definitely avoid it. Good luck in your journey from the Gulf side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Most young people are foolish, in any trade or profession. It's quite fortunate for the aging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 On 3/23/2019 at 5:00 PM, Thejay said: I'm going to make everything featured on forged in fire I was on FIF, and the equipment on it is fine for a TV set that's a competition. On the set they use Majestic 3 burner deluxe knife maker forges, Big Blue power hammer, a pneumatic press, and Travis Wuertz grinders. The forges were fine for a square bodied forge, but couldn't be turned down very low and basically use Ron Reil burners (which are fine but out of date now). Big Blue is a great power hammer, lot's of fun, Wuertz grinders are great. The hand equipment varied from crappy dollar store files to good hammers and anvil. The tongs are OK, but not what I would pick. More interesting is looking at the variety that can be seen in everybody's home forge! Unfortunately for the beginner, the equipment people use at home ranges from bad and dangerous to ingenious to the very expensive professional. Unless you have worked with it, you don't know which is best for your situation, or what is not a good tool. As for the forge you are making, read and listen to people here. Good info. Some more info on your end might help. On 3/23/2019 at 2:58 PM, Thejay said: I am new to blacksmithing, I have made a couple knives, latches and a bearded viking battle axe What size knives are you interested in making? You can HT an 8" blade with a 1 burner, and a 12" with a 2 burner (and longer if you know what you are doing). If money is a consideration, then a 3 burner will suck up a lot of gas. If you want to make a longer 3 burner forge you can put shutoff valves on each one and make a movable sliding wall to block off a section of the forge. Let us know your intentions so we can help you more. On 3/23/2019 at 2:58 PM, Thejay said: I have included a pic of what I have now, If the barrel is too big, you can also make a lengthwise cut and overlap the edges and weld/rivet/bolt it together to make a smaller diameter. I'm all for using what you have. The shell is just a support for the refractory materials...the shells on my forges are often a patchwork of sections to get just the length and diameter I want. On 3/23/2019 at 4:23 PM, Thejay said: building up the bottom, I figured by making a flat surface for the bottom I would loose a lot of space. Since you have them and it appears you don't have much ceramic wool, you can use the rutland bricks to make a flat bottom (hold it everyone, just hear me through), IF you use them under a layer or two of ceramic fiber, then cover the fiber with some refractory as others such as Frosty outlined. The end result will be a 'D' shaped forge or can be similar in inside shape to the muffler forge shape. Dan R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 31, 2019 Share Posted March 31, 2019 Did you compete on FIF Dan? If so, which episode, the only way I can keep them straight if by the final challenge. Eg. The Naginata was one of Theo's. What I've noticed in FIF episodes is the lack of basic shop skills even in some of the accomplished bladesmiths. Drill bit getting dull? PUSH harder, isn't the sign of someone who passed a 101 shop class. I agree, I enjoy seeing what guys are using at home more than the studio set. When you say dangerous, you aren't talking about quenching a sword in a PVC pipe tank are you? Then there was the fellow who over filled his quench tank, quenched a long blade IN the garage and almost burned the place down. The production crew must've had FD on site, the last shot as the cameramen retreated from the garage was ceiling high flames spreading across the floor. Here's a thought for you Thejay. How about making 3 decent size 1 burner vault (mailbox shaped) forges you can clamp, bolt, ? together when you actually NEED a long forge? It'll save you a LOT of fuel and the one thing in a shop even more precious than saving a few bucks in disposables like fuel. . . SPACE! Hmmmm? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thejay Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 Frosty, I like that idea and I may go that route but I have to put the new forge on the back burner for now. I have a budget that is for all of my hobbies and the boat is currently being a budget hog. I'm still able to forge with what I have and TIME seems to be more of a hindrance than anything. I am a Forman on a line crew and we don't get much time off. On the plus side after wearing gloves and sleeves all day in the Florida sun for years the heat from the forge is surprisingly welcome on those cooler days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Rotblatt Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 4 hours ago, Frosty said: Did you compete on FIF Dan? If so, which episode Tabar Shishpar...weird indian thing with axe on one side and mace on the other. Never got to finals though Lots of squirrelly stuff going on in peoples shops, but some great ideas too! Good idea on modular forge...hmmmmmmmm. 1 hour ago, Thejay said: the boat is currently being a budget hog A hole in the water that you try to fill with money. Good luck, wish I was in a place where I could build a boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 I remember that one, pipe wrench jaws and adjusting nut would be good knife steel. Handles are forged but tough not hard. I'll watch it again I don't remember the Tabar Shishpar. Lining up smaller forges isn't my idea and a couple finalists on FIF have lined up smaller forges, one left a space between them for some reason. It didn't seem to prevent getting an even heat on a long blade and he didn't explain why so . . . Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.