Chinese Files vs. Nicholson or Simonds

[patrickrock]

So, I was a machinists supply shop this morning picking up some 36 grit bench grinder wheels (Why the heck don't they carry those at Lowes?), and I realized that I needed a double cut bastard file for another project I'm into that requires some aggressive stock removal, that I can't do with the bench grinder.

I have a couple of Nicholson smooth files for jointing my card scrapers, but that's all I really know about files.

Well, the Chinese file is 3 bucks vs. 12 for the nicholsons and simonds, and I'm cheap, so I bought the Chinese file, after talking to the desk guy who said, the only difference is longevity.

Anyone care to educate me? Remember, I'm not a machinist working a file every day, I just need something adequate for the task at hand.

[ThomasPowers]

Well I have some Nicholson files from the 1960's that are still going strong and I have never had a chinese or indian file that made it thru 1 project.

Now what is the gas/time cost to replace the file?

If you take care of files and don't abuse them the more expensive ones are much cheaper than the cheap ones. If you are abusive then the cheap ones may be a better deal.

Of course I don't like the Nicholson ones nearly as much as the old Black Diamonds from before Nicholson had them; of course they are older than I am and I am closer to 100 than to 0 now.

[patrickrock]

Thanks, that is valuable information. I had no idea files could last so long. I guess I kind of thought that due to the nature of the work they perform that they could be worn out.

[matt87]

For the record, Chinese or Indian files are usually case-hardened mild steel, whereas 'proper' files are made from a high-carbon steel blank; around 1% carbon. Theoretically a case-hardened file is more durable than a 'proper' one, as the soft core backs up the hard case. However I expect that, the nature of the economic beast being what it is, the case depth is very shallow and so wears through very quickly. Also, plain-hardening steels are shallow-hardening, with the core remaining relatively soft so their durability isn't really all that less. (Of course, you shouldn't be dropping or hitting your files at all...)

Time was, files were always case-hardened, from wrought iron. Good steel was just that expensive that even such a fundamental tool as a the humble file was too much to have it made form steel.

[patrickrock]

curiouser and curiouser.

Well, even among the Indo-Chi-Wain made tools there are different levels of quality. The guy at the supply house said plenty of people buy the Chinese files, so perhaps they are sourced from something higher quality than the shrink wrapped .99 combo pack from Harbor Freight.

I'm cutting in the bevels of a some small carving and marking knives on annealed 01. I will let you guys know how these hold up.

[Rich Hale]

Patrick this is an on going issue; do you buy quality or cheap? The best way for you to decide is to compare and decide. Buy a good file and compare it to the cheap junk...(dang that may have come off as a bit of predjudice). If you do compare give them both and even chance. Buy a file card and use it often. It is a kind of wire brush made for files and removes small particles of metal from the teeth so they do not clog and put scratches in your work. Brush in line with the teeth. Any small pieces of metal not removed can be picked out with a needle.

[patrickrock]

Yep, I know what a file card is. Like I said I have a couple of Nicholson smooth cuts for my card scrapers. I just didn't feel like dropping another 12 bucks today on top of the rest of my purchase so I bought the 2 dollar bastard file.

For 2 bucks we can afford to experiment, eh?

I wish people wouldn't frame these questions into quality vs. cheap. Different people have different budgets and handle their finances differently. Not everything cheap is junk. Much of it is, as I say, adequate for the task at hand.

For example, I rarely use a right angle grinder, but I need one sometimes. So 3 years ago I bought a Harbor Freight one. Its been going strong and doing all that I need it too ever since. There's no need for me to own a dewalt or metabo. I was able to save myself about 100 bucks there.

On the other hand I use my wood working machinery every day, so I own only Jet and Delta equipment, but even then I waited and bought what I wanted on deep discount. Why? Because this is a hobby for me, and I have a wife and kids, and therefore have a financial responsibility to try and keep my expenses as low as possible.

So, I try to go as cheap as possible when it makes sense. It doesn't matter if I'm buying a file, a car, or a can of beans at the grocery store. Its just how I live my life, and I've rarely been burned by it.

I'll try the 2 dollar file, if it works it works and I'll buy more. If it doesn't I'll buy the Nicholsons next time.

Rich, you've got a lot more riding on your equipment and materials than I do, it makes perfect sense for you to buy the best files and tools you can. I'm not questioning your advice or experience, and in fact I'm sure you'll probably wind up being right. The general consensus here seems to be that the Chinese files are junk.

(But then again 10 years ago I bought a "generic" socket set instead of Snap On, and its going strong too. I've never broke a single handle or socket. Maybe I just don't work my tools hard enough?)

[yesteryearforge]

You can also chalk the file and greatly reduce scratches and the ability of the filings sticking in the grooves/teeth of the file

Mike Tanner

[jimbob]

the bigest problem with all of them is rust. I've found that sears has files covered with Durachrom (sp) they don't rust. I have two I've had of over 25 years still going strong

[Rich Hale]

Maybe the question is about what is inexpensive and what cost more in the long run. For instance I use a 2"x 72" belt grinder and learned long ago that I can buy belts that are less than $2. I cannot finish a rough grind on one blade with one of them. Takes me two belts. I bought some 3M belts that were over $8 a belt. I roughed the hollow grind on 60 stainless blades with one belt. Guess that I why I am skewed towards quality versus cheap. I have since that time found a better belt that cost even more. And lasts even longer. As for the side grinder I have a pricey Makita and a cheap one from Harbor Freight. The Makita is second best of the two. That has pushed me into trying things out on different ends of the price scale and not supposing that price guarantees better.

[patrickrock]

Exactly sometimes we have to experiment.

I have a feeling the chinese files will suck. My experience with abrasives is similar to yours. For woodworking I only buy Norton sand papers now. They just last longer with less clogging issues.

[ThomasPowers]

And then there is another route; my last 20+ nicholson files have cost between 25 cents and one dollar and so higher quality at a cheaper price. Of course they were used at the fleamarket. Once you learn how to judge the "sharpness" of a used file you can often find almost unused files very cheap---and when they are past using then they go into pattern welded billets to juice up the carbon content---why I love the old Black Diamonds with 1.2%C!

Of course the time I spend at flea markets should be counted in; but I chalk that up to entertainment. (Even in my small town, under 10K *with* the university in session and the largest town in the large county we have a small fleamarket every Friday morning.)

I stopped by the fleamarket in my Parents city twice over the weekend while visiting them. 2 American made ballpein hammers for US$1 apiece and a cole drill for US$12 in great condition and with the chuck key! And a nice walk. I only get there a couple of times a year but dealers recognize the disreputable red hat and know what I'm interested in.
There were a half dozen nicholson files in good condition but I have way too may already.

[philip in china]

There are different grades of Chinese files. If you get a good one they are pretty good. I have used only Chinese files for the past couple of years and haven't had a problem yet. Will they still be working in 30 years? I don't know but I certainly shan't.

[Makoz]

My 2c worth, I use files a lot (a lot more than a real blacksmith!) so I buy only quality brand like Nicholson or Bahco. Nothing more frustrating than a file that doesn't bite! Even a good one will have a limited life, especially if used on stainless steel, or a lathe. I store mine carefully in a tool roll in the toolbox, or a rack in the workshop, so they don't get knocked about...at $12-25 a pop that makes sense.
I have used Chinese ones, but IMO they are OK for woodwork but frustrating on metal. Even Australian hardwoods give them a testing!

Cheers,
Makoz

[Ten Hammers]

As noted, you get what you pay for ( new stuff when you NEED an item ). Good files are priceless and junk files are worthless ( for a very large part ). Junk files will make a hot file sometimes. I think I have one file from India but no chinese. European files are really nice from my experience. Like Thomas sez, a junk box with a few files is nice to find. Muriatic will sharpen old good quality files and rasps. Try a junk file on a chain saw sometime ( I haven't and won't ). As noted also chalk will prevent pinning but a good file card and some compressed air is awfully handy. A hot file is the only way sometimes.

[tzonoqua]

I made the mistake a few weeks ago of buying cheap files, I should have spent the extra money- but my favoured brand - Vallorbe (superior Swiss made files) was not on special and the other ones were. I bought the other ones, and now regret it. I think the term is "False Economy"

[patrickrock]

Ok. A follow up after filing in bevels for the first time.

1. .99 Cent shrink wrapped bastard file I picked up I don't remember where. Awful.

2. 3.00 Chinese files from the machinist supply shop that was recommended by a counter guy there. Cuts fast, but extremely coarse. Even the single cut smooth file was quite coarse.

3. Nicholson mill cut bastard. Cut extremely fast, and incredibly smooth. Cut nearly as fast as the chinese double cut bastard. Most importantly it cut extremely smooth. Nearly as smooth as the Chinese single cut smooth.

Now remember, the Chinese files that I bought are not the bargain bin special from Lowes. These are stocked items at a machinists supply house and come in an identical range of sizes and cuts as the Nicholsons. They cut fast, but they cut coarse.

The Nicholson was in another world though, and now that I have cheap set of "beater" files I'll be buying Nicholosons for my fine work in the future.

Please be aware I'm not recommending Chinese files in general. The ones I got from the machinist supply shop are clearly a different animal than the cheap crap they sell at home centers.

[snake]

i have the cheap chinese files to abuse and toss around (like filing off rough, sloppy torch cuts) and the good nicholsons for more important, quality work. i don't like to beat up my expensive files on rough work, so those cheap sets you can sometimes find at costco come in real handy. i also find them useful for woodworking.

but, don't have any delusions about putting the chinese files into the forge after they're dull and fashioning a knife or other tool. those things aren't even case-hardened mild steel. they're some kind of pot metal junk with a thin wrapping of steel on the outside. get them red-hot, hit 'em with a hammer and the inside crumbles into dust. so basically once they no longer cut, they're useless. can't even recycle 'em into something else.

Edited June 30, 2008 by snake

[keykeeper]

Don't know if anyone mentioned this brand- Save Edge. I think they are USA made. I have seen some of this brand in farrier's rasps. I pick them up in around a 14" size at a tool resale shop in a town 30 miles away. Less than $5 each. I have to look carefully in the bins for them, there's some china junk mixed in. VERY good files. Nice and heavy, cut smooth. I usually pick another up each time I'm there, can't have too many of this good a quality.

[Quenchcrack]

I have rarely been satisfied with Chinese or Indian made tools. Yes, I own some for occasional use but anything I use regularly I buy better quality. My son will be graduating from Tech School soon as an auto mechanic and we just bought him his first set of "Basic" tools from SnapOn. It all fits into a single 8 drawer machinist chest from Sears. $1700 excludeing the tool box. Would Craftsman do? Sure for a while. If I was making a living with my tools, they would not be Chinese or Indian. For Hobby work, maybe.