etching pattern welded steel

[c.baum]

Hi Folks, 

I've got a little problem. I made a pattern welded steel of 1045 and an old file. So there are no other alloys worth mentioning in it (except of carbon of course). It's the first try and the package welded perfectly. The first etch in ferric chloride for 10 min showed a nice pattern. But after heat treating there's just a glimpse of a pattern after 1 hour of etching. As far as my experience goes (but with high alloy steel) the pattern becomes more intensive after hardening. Anyone with some more experience in pattern welded steels out of "pure carbon steel"? I just don't want to ruin the blade by etching it too long.

[Steve Sells]

Color comes from differential etching, too long may etch everything evenly

[c.baum]

Thanks for your opinion Steve. I made several experiences with that. Your absolutely right.

I'm sorry, i forgot to mention, that the knife has not been hardened completely. I'll attach some pictures to give you an impression. As you might see, the unhardened handle area has a really nice pattern, the hardened blade area hasn't. 

 

  

[Steve Sells]

you  are not going to get much of a pattern using only carbon based steels. the carbon equalized fast due to carbon migration when welding, leaving only the minor differences in the alloys of the bars themselves for etching resistance

[jeremy k]

Are you sending between etchings to keep the high spots polished?

[c.baum]

Steve Sells,

Thats not correct. Our ancestors used only carbon based steels to make pattern welded steels since the late 8th century. And as you can see on my handle there is a well defined pattern possible. The equalization of the carbon depends among other things on the number of welding heats. And it does at every steel, not only the pure carbon steels. 

[Steve Sells]

 I covered the speed of carbon migration in my book, so I wont go into that thesis here again other than to say it isnt because of carbon differences because there isnt any.  There are  other accidental elements in even the best made steels only in a lab can they make pure steels,  and that is where the  differences comes from.  But I will invite you to explain what gives the different colors  in steels

[wicon]

c.baum: earlier! - see Sutton Hoo or  the letter from Theoderich "wurmbunt". I guess that the different etching in old blades mostly depends on different contents of phosphorus ( and sulphur and arsenic ). In your case the difference might be the content of manganese, C45 high file low.

[ThomasPowers]

Now for earlier enchants:  Vinegar or vinegar and salt work well but leave little topology, Fruit acids-like lime juice.  Tannic acid like found in peat bogs; Zag used for wootz blades and generally considered to be an impure ferric sulfate,  Differential rusting using salt solutions. And of course any of the mineral acids produced in the applicable time period, (Vitriol H2S04, Muriatic HCl, Aqua Fortis HNO3, usw...)

[c.baum]

Steve Sells,

don't get me wrong, I'm sure you know what you're talking about. But that's not an explanation for that, the unhardened handle shows a pattern and the hardened Blade doesn't. I can't imagine that all the welding heats didn't effect an migration of carbon and the one short hardening heat does. I hope you can imagine what my thoughts are.