Buying First Anvil

[stonetrooper]

I have had an interest in blacksmithing for 7 years now but due to time and money constraints have never done anything about it. I turned 40 last month and have decided to go for it. At a local antique store there are 2 anvils for sale. One is rusty and all the edges that should be angled are rounded off. Also it has no ring. Price $139. The other is blue, has an "M" on it, has good edges on the face and has an excellent ring. Price: $299. I was leaning toward buying it when I noticed a seam going down the middle of the anvil front to back on both sides. I've read about the differences in cast anvils and the better quality wrought iron and steel anvils. The seam thing kind of made it think it was cast but it had a great ring which I understood to be only on wrought iron or steel. Should I get the blue anvil or keep looking? Is the ring the best way to tell?

Second question: I have a length of railroad rail and wondered if anyone knew the best way to cut off a piece to use as an anvil. I called a local welder and he said it would take a plasma welder and he couldn't do it.

Third: at the antique store I mentioned they have two blacksmith post vices for sale. I have a huge, very heavy vice already but it's a standard bench vice. How critical is it to have a post vice for a beginner? They both work and are very old.

Thanks in advance!

[Max Mulholland - Tetnum]

i don't know about the anvils but here are some ideas for the rail Index to Anvil Making articles
and for the vice i have gotten by with a 20# craftsman bench vice for the past while just make sure you have it held down well to a solid object (ie. stump )
hope fully someone else can help you with the anvils

[HWooldridge]

A seam at the waist is normal for some welded anvils - don't let that bother you. A few pics would be helpful but it sounds like the second one might be a good choice. However, the first one could be a Fisher (which does not ring) so don't dismiss it out of hand.

[Thomas Dean]

HOWDY form East TEXAS!! and welcome to IFI!
Stonetrooper, The ring is not as important as the REBOUND. Go back to the antique store and take a ballpien hammer and strike the anvil face, NOT hard, but a medium strike. The hammer should bounce back, almost like the anvil is throughing the hammer back at you. If you have a steel ball approx. 1"dia. you can drop the ball at say 12" and the ball should bounce back at least 3/4 of the distance, making sure you just drop the ball. How much does the anvil weigh? I'm not real familuar with the different markings such as the "M" on the side, but if it has numbers such as 1 - 1 - 1 across the waist of the anvil then the weight is in the English 'hundred weight'. 1=112#, 1=28#, 1=1# The first # is 112 x 1, the 2nd # is 1/4 of 112= 28#, 3rd# is in lbs 1#. Anvil weight would be 141#. (Are you TOTALLY confused now!? ) Depending on shape of the anvil, i.e. clean, not chipped edges, face in good shape (no deep hammer marks), hardie hole (the square one) not wallered out, plus the weight the $299 may not be a bad price. My largest anvil weighs 185# (approx) and I gave a touch over $3.00 per/lb. but it is great shape and is a Hay Budden and I am proud of it. About 4 months after I bought that one I came across a 105# Hay Budden and gave $60.00 for it and it is in better shape than the larger one. I paid $50.00 for a 125# Acme in good shape and $100.00 for a 146# Peter Wright with a cold cut hardie. Deals are out there. Check the Blueprints for Thomas Powers' "never fail anvil finding advice". Sorry for the long rant, just hope I have not muddied the waters too much.

Now, about those post vises....$10.00 per inch of jaw width is a good start up to about a 5 1/2" jaw. The vise you have is OK for now, but the advantage of the post vise, or leg vise as it is often referred to, is that you can forge/hammer a piece clamped in the vise and not damage the vise. With the bench vise you can damage the screw, break the jaws, or just generally mess the thing up pretty good! If you purchase the vise, make sure the screw and screw box are in good shape, no pulled threads. The jaws should line up both across the top and on both sides. One way to check to see if the jaws clamp evenly is to clamp a piece of paper (or dollar bill) in the vise and lightly pull the paper at both ends making sure it holds at both ends and in the middle. Darn, another long rant....

You might consider making an offer for one of each, the best anvil and vise. Don't be shy but don't tick them off with a rediculously low offer. The worst they can say is 'No' and they may make a counter offer that you can live with. Good luck.

Again, welcome to IFI. BTW, not everyone here is this long winded....

[Frosty]

Part of the pricing equation is weight, after you determine the basic nature of the beast.

When you say the edges are rounded off. Do you mean ground off or broken off.

While it's not universal, most smiths round the edges of their anvils for good reasons. We can get into that if you'd like but for now suffice it to say rounded edges are not a bad thing.

Broken and chipped edges are a different matter, depending on how badly damaged the face is.

About the apparent seam on the second anvil. Front to back on both sides? Do you mean at the waist? Is it horizontal or vertical?

I assume it isn't about 1/2" under the face because that'd be where the high carbon face was welded to the body.

What do they weigh? Where are the Hardy (square) holes? Are there pritchel (small round) holes?

We need more info and better yet pictures to be more specific. Unless of course the "M" means something to somebody, wouldn't surprise me mind you, I just don't know.

You can cut rail with a torch, no problem. I prefer to use my horizontal band saw. Only the rail surface is induction hardened so a saw cut needs to come from the bottom. Lay the rail on it's side with the flange facing the direction the teeth are coming from and it'll cut it a treat.

Welcome aboard.

Frosty

Edited May 18, 2008 by Frosty

[matt87]

Hi Stonetrooper, and welcome to IFI.

I think it was Frosty that cut a piece of rail using a bucksaw loaded with bandsaw blade. Doable, and good exercise for your hammerin arm ;-)

Of course, I wouldn't be so quick to cut your rail to make an anvil. I don't know how long it is, but the longer the better. As the link Tetnum provided, set it on end, rather than the 'right' way up; it puts most of the mass under the hammer, and reduces the flex that you get from the thin web. If the length is greater than your ideal anvil height and you're working on a dirt floor or outdoors, dig a hole. There is a blueprint on here about that vrey thing, but it's dosn for maintenance/upgrade right now.

[Frosty]

Wasn't me who hand cut rail but it's very doable and less work than a person might think.

Standing it on end is a good option. You can also grind different radii on the web and flange to serve as fullers though you're limited by their thickness in this application.

If you have a welder or access you can weld a section of rail onto the vertical section for the best of both worlds. Great depth of steel under the hammer and a decent face to work on.

Also, if you have access to a welder and a way to cut it you can make a denser, heavier and more rigid anvil with a flat face by stacking shorter sections and welding them together as in the sketch.

If you leave one of the bottom pieces longer than the stack and shape the rail you can have a slightly off center horn. Leave the other side long and you can have another horn, perhaps a flat square taper, or whatever you like.

The benefit of this is you're tripling the weight of your anvil for the same length. Also the flat flange bottom makes a fine face with just a little polishing.

A word of warning is in order however. Rail is all high carbon steel and needs proper care when welding deep sections like this. Pre and post heats are recommended as are annealing and THEN hardening and tempering.

Lastly you want to use "line" rail for tool making where heating or welding is concerned. Yard rail has a high percentage of either Vanadium or Manganese for wear resistance and rigidity. Both have a limited lifespan at heat and annealing them is beyond the capacity of a small scale smithy. Sending it to the heat treaters would cost you more than just buying an anvil.

Frosty

[Glenn]

Show me your anvil
True prices for anvils.
Show me abused anvils

True price for a vise
Show me your vise

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[FieryFurnace]

I'd go with anvil number two. Mine has that weld line and a quiet ring to it. I like a post vice. It gives me more room to move around and twist long pieces if steel.
Word of advice! Don't paint your anvil or vice. I tried to do that with heat resistant paint, but, of course, it burned it off admediately. That made the anvil service slippery and smokey.
Good luck!
The kidsmith,
Dave Custer

[philip in china]

On the vices you do need a leg vice if you are going to hammer on it. I use my vice almost as much as my anvil. A shop vice or two, or three are useful things to have but you should not hammer on them- as in blacksmiths level of hammering. They will disintegrate faster than you would believe if you do.