anvil?

[Max Mulholland - Tetnum]

i am 15 and am strongly concidering buying a new anvil (or new to me) and i realised i dont have a clue what makes an anvil a good anvil i know the idea that anay thing you can beat steel on is an anvil but what makes an anvil good what anvil do you use and what makes it good

thank you

-max

[Dodge]

Here is a pretty good article on choosing an anvil anvilfire.com - FAQs Click on the link titled "Anvil Selection"

[Frosty]

Max:

That is a very good question, exactly the kind that makes teaching such a joy for me. The kind of question that makes me examine just why I think or do a thing the way I do and more often than not leads me to learn more than I teach.

So, before I delve into my little world of musings and opinions I want to say thank you for the excellent question.

At it's most basic an anvil must be heavy and hard enough to win the fight when I lay a piece of hot steel on it and hit it with a hammer.

A reasonably flat patch is good too though level isn't necessary.

What I prefer is a london pattern, mostly because that's what I use the most though I have used many field expedient anvils. The horn is handy as are the hardy and pritchel holes though none of these is essential.

Mass, an anvil must have enough mass to allow you to work the size stock you need to efficiently. I've worked 1 1/4" rd. between sledge hammers successfully but it was a major pain. If I'd had an anvil in the 200lb+ range I could've done the job in half an hour rather than half a day.

Mass means the smith needs to decide what scale s/he wants to work to and buy an anvil of suitable size. Suitable means larger than you think you'll need.

In my case I have two primary working anvils a 125lb Sodorfors and a 200lb. Trenton.

I can work 1/2" sq. with a 3lb. hammer well on the Sodorfors but will literally bounce it off the deck if I try working 3/4" with the same 3lb. hammer. A 5lb. sledge will send it dancing.

The Trenton on the other hand doesn't bat an eye if I take a 10lb. sledge to 1"+ on it. Just that 75lbs. makes a world of difference. Both are similarly mounted on spruce blocks.

The next most important aspect of a good anvil is face hardness. The Sodorfors will almost make a new chisel skate, putting it in the 60-62R range and subject to chipping under missed hits.

The Trenton is probably in the mid 50's R, a cold chisel or hot set will mar it.

Which of these is best? Depends a lot on what you do, your experience and accuracy. I rarely allow a new student to use the Sodorfors, a missed blow in the edge might not only damage a superb anvil but a chip can open an artery.

The crack you hear isn't the steel breaking it's the chip breaking the sound barrier.

I also reserve the Sodorfors for finish and fine work now I have the Trenton for the rough and heavy stuff.

Horns are handy but not necessary as I said, I can turn a scroll over the edge faster than the horn. I can also turn a ring and true it up without the horn though it's more hassle, it's very doable.

A nice selection of rd stock or heavy wall pipe will go a long way towards replacing the horn, especially if you have a leg vise to clamp them in.

Finish. I put the finish of an anvil at the bottom of my list simply because it isn't terribly important unless you're making blades, jewelry or some such. Flat isn't terribly important either as long as it isn't WAY irregular. A bit of sway is a good thing, as is a bit of a high center.

The sway will let you straighten pieces better, faster and with less hassle than a flat face.

A little hump will act like a fuller and aid drawing. This is the least desirable (non-gross) facial irregularity though as it'll make straightening harder and the horn makes a far better bottom fuller.

Nicks, dings, pitting, scars, etc. don't make much difference as long as they're not extreme or you can work around them.

What a nice shiny face will do is allow the steel to move with less friction and save your arm. This isn't critical in any way but it is nice.

Sharp edges aren't particularly desirable except maybe a small area for checking and dressing 90* corners. Sharp edges make working over the edge harder and endanger the work by cutting it.

Radiused edges are, in my opinion, far better. They make for stronger forged corners do not cut, and are tougher so there's less chance of damaging the edge of your anvil.

Brand preference is a matter of choice as is old school vs. newly made.

And that's my two kopecs

Frosty

[FieryFurnace]

I'm fifteen too, and Frosty probably told you everything you need to know, but here goes.
I was told to make sure your hammer would bounce off the anvil face a little. Not enough to send you to the hospital, but just pop it up a little. Mine does that. Also, I don't like mine to ring. Mine has a pleasant "ping" to it when you hammer. It's anoying when your anvil sounds like you're taking a piece of sheet metal and hitting your neighbors car with it. I was told that I didn't want sharp edges. I can see how this would be bad because it marks the steel. Mine is slightly rounded. Other than that, I don't know much else. I think there is supposed to be a top plate instead of a solid anvil, and I heard that cast anvils are bad. I don't know the difference because I've never owned a cast anvil.

The kidsmith,
Dave Custer

"It's not the fact that you're dead that counts but only how did you die."

[Max Mulholland - Tetnum]

thankyou

dodge the link you gave is very usefull and contains great information

frosty thankyou for all the information i new some one would have the answer along with the answer to alot of feture questions

dave i thank you for your input the reason i am asking these questions is to replace my decrepid a 15# hf aso no feet no non chipped edges and a 1/4 inch depression in the center

[minaraimono]

Between the Anvil Fire articles and Frosty's post, you should have more than enough info to go on. Just remember that an anvil is no better than what its sitting on. A good stand/base is absolutely key. I know that a lot of people use them, but I highly recommend NOT using any kind of fabricated stand, i.e., steel legs. The amount of energy that it will steal from your hammer blows will cost you much more time than finding a good stump or building a sand-filled stand (in the long run).

Thats all the time i have. Im sure others can add more details about stands, if you want.

P.S.

At age 15 the most important thing you can teach yourself is Good Posture. It is the foundation on which all skill is based. I wish I had payed more attention to it when I was your age. But its never too late...

[matt87]

Dont forget this article: LB0005 Blacksmithing Anvils

[ThomasPowers]

May I commend to your attention a very nice anvil made of good steel weiging over 100# that cost US$25 + the scrounging?

Marco/Krieger Armory - Rapiers and Accessories

If you live in a thickly settled area you may be able to contact a forklift repair place and ask about getting a broken/bent/abused tine for doing the same with---do tell them what you plan to do with it so they are not afraid that you might be wanting to use it on a forklift and so they would be liable---shoot you might be able to talk them into cutting it for you!

N.B. I am the "Thomas" mentioned in the story---and have the other tine in my possession!

[Frosty]

That is one of the finest improvised anvils I've ever seen.

When it gets down to it the anvil's face only needs to be a little larger than the hammer's face. Straightening can be done elsewhere. Having such a depth of steel under the face more than makes up for weight in most cases.

Other similar items make excellent anvils, I've been trying to snag a RR axle for a striking anvil and if I can get several they'll become a power hammer anvil.

Frosty

[ThomasPowers]

Honest Bob Cruikshank, the blacksmith's friend, has demo'ed at SOFA a number of times using an improvised anvil that was a section of large shafting that was cut off.

He has his stump carved out so it will sit flat on the side for anvil use or you can turn it up on the side and use the curve to speed up drawing.

Good steel too!

I love my 500# Fisher; but as Frosty says---its the smith not the tools! I proudly claim to come from over a million years of tool using monkeys and can use a *rock* for an anvil if need be!

[keykeeper]

I think there is supposed to be a top plate instead of a solid anvil, and I heard that cast anvils are bad. I don't know the difference because I've never owned a cast anvil.

Solid anvils that are forged will have a steel top plate and wrought body, usually. Generally very good, unless the top plate is separated or missing.

Cast steel anvils are generally very good, and you don't have to worry about separation of the top plate from the body, as it's all one piece, generally.

CAST IRON ASO's (anvil shaped objects) are what to watch out for. Not worth much, IMO.

[ThomasPowers]

One more variation: Cast Iron anvils with a steel face plate: These can be excellent anvils and have the virtue of being quiet and not ringing like a bell when struck with the hammer. In the USA there were two major brands made this way: Fisher and Vulcan.

My opinion is that Fishers rank up with the best of anvils. I do not think so highly of Vulcans and yes I have owned and used both brands.

Note there are *no* companies making anvils in this fashion today. Cast iron ASO's are 100% Cast Iron un-lovliness top to bottom!

[ornametalsmith]

lots of good info. The only thing I'd add is that it is Handy to have a ball bearing with you while your shopping for that anvil. It lets you "test" the hardness or recoil of the face. Hold the bearing about 10" above the face....and drop it....you WANT the bearing to AT LEAST bounce back 7 or more inches. The higher it bouncer......the more you should grin.
well that's my two cents.

[Max Mulholland - Tetnum]

I proudly claim to come from over a million years of tool using monkeys and can use a *rock* for an anvil if need be!

thomas a rock is not as good as the anvil stump and likes to explode no matter what rock you use beleve me i started out on a chunk of granite bad anvil and not recomended and warned aganst but if you wish?

-max

[Frosty]

Max:

A boulder isn't on the "good anvil" list, it's on the "will work" and is really only good for emergencies and demos.

Also a wood block will not replace a boulder as an anvil, you can't draw iron on wood. Bend, sink, dish, etc. yes, but not draw.

If you find yourself having to use a boulder again don't use granite, try to find a fine grained mafic or ultramafic boulder. Basalt is a mafic stone though generally too coarse grained. Hornblend for one makes a dandy boulder anvil. It's very hard, generally too tough to chip without special tools and almost glossy smooth. It's also really dense and heavy and slightly more radioactive than granite for those afraid of nuclear anvils.

Mafics and ultramafics tend to be dark to black stone. Be SURE to wear good jeans and a leather apron along with eye protection. A stone shard can open a femoral artery before you know you're cut and bleed you out in short order.

Frosty

[Mende]

I've used a granite boulder and a strong looking quartz river rock to flatten a steel rod I found while barbecueing once. ..was getting bored so I fanned the coals leftover from the cooking and got the rod red hot and beat it senseless with a rock ..left it 2 cool . .and ground it on another rock ..and made a very primitive knife blade ...2 bad i couldnt dettach it so i left it there. ..

[Max Mulholland - Tetnum]

slightly more radioactive than granite for those afraid of nuclear anvils.

ahhhhh please dont remind me of those anvils taunting me in that ware house ist a giant bulding fill of anvills about 95% are radio active or have some nasty chamicals on/in them

the ones that escaped incarceration in the lacal super fund site

all from 10# to 500+ they just taunts me

[Frosty]

Don't believe everything you hear Max. The chances they needed any quantity of anvils at a nuclear facility are pretty remote. Remote as in the gray area between sci fi and fantasy.

Besides, most everything is radioactive to one extent or another. The stuff that'll be radioactive for 10,000 years isn't emitting much today or any given day so don't get too excited about it. What you have to watch out for are the ones that have half lives in the decade or less range. Those puppies are smokin.

Hmmmm. Maybe make the perfect forge for one of those radioactive anvils.

Frosty

[Max Mulholland - Tetnum]

not all are radio active but have some other nasty thing on them
whale they would be nice i dont think its wise to mess around with scinide and other nasty stuff

[matt87]

Couldn't you bead-blast or pressure-wash cyanide off?

[Max Mulholland - Tetnum]

yes i could but i just used cyanide as an example lots of other chemicals on them

[ThomasPowers]

I asked Jock over at AnvilFire about nucler contamination of anvils as his family business used to be making specialized repair equipment for the nuclear industry. His take on it was that they should be easily cleanable and then safe to use.

Any chemical contamination will only be a surface contamination and so easy to remove as well with the proper precautions.

As for rocks, I have never had any problems with them exploding when *I* got to choose them, that degree in Geology still comes in handy sometimes...As Frosty says ultramafics are a good starting place though in these parts the basalt is fine grained and the hornblende is coarser grained. There is evidence that the Norse in viking times used stone anvils for things like bloom consolidation and switched over to the fairly small anvils they used for finer work.

[matt87]

I understand on several ancient farms in Scandanavia there are large c.200lb blocks of stone exhibiting swayback...

Dave Budd using a stone avil

[calamari]

Can someone explain the difference between a blacksmiths anvil and a farriers anvil?
Also, what are clip ons?

Thanks
Ryan

[Frosty]

A farrier's anvil has features that make forging and sizing horse shoes easier. They aren't necessary for making shoes and they make good general smithing anvils.

A farrier will doubtless answer shortly and we'll both learn the real low down skinny.

Frosty