Anvil advice for newbie

[paulgatx]

Hi, I'm just getting into black/bladesmithing as an at-home hobby.  I've taken 40 hours of classes so far, and am starting to set up my home shop.  The smithy I trained in had TFS 100lb anvils for the students, so I am comfortable with that one and am considering buying one since they are available at in my hometown.  That is about the size and style that I am looking for.  However, I found an interesting post on Craiglist from a guy starting up a business.

 

It's a great price for what could be a decent anvil (60kg for $450).  It is cast steel, which I understand can be bad.  But it is 1053 and tempered to 55-62 hrc.  I talked to him a bit for more info, and he said they are being made in China and use middle frequency induction quench (I know nothing about that) for the hardening.  He also said they are the same manufacturer that makes Cougar anvils in Australia, for what that's worth.  I checked them out and they look pretty cheap with a bad flat horn design, but these horns look nice and round.

I'm a total newbie at this, so can someone take a look at this add and give me their honest first opinion about it?

Thank you.

[John McPherson]

Your external commercial link will shortly be taken down by an admin: they are expressly forbidden in the site agreement.

A guy reselling imported cast anvils out of 1053 (?), that has no say over the quality control, and offers no reasons why his are better or equal to those sold thru reputable dealers (with guarantees) for a similar price. What could go wrong?

Color me skeptical. 

Get a lump of scrap steel for pennies a pound, or buy a real anvil from a real dealer with a real customer satisfaction record. You will be happier in the long run.

[jlblohm]

Those anvils are made in china and are available through alibaba. i was considering buying some of these to turn around and sell but chose not to because of the lack of quality control.

If they are truly 55-62 hrc i wiuld say theu are on the higher end of the hardness scale.

[JHCC]

Welcome to IFI!  If you haven’t yet, please READ THIS FIRST!!!

If you are just starting out (and even if you’re not), you would be much better advised to follow John McPherson’s advice above and get an an anvil of known quality from a reputable dealer or to consider improvising a nonstandard anvil as in this thread:

 

[jlblohm]

Honestly if i was to go back in time and buy my first anvil all over again i would go with the kanca anvil. It is a forged anvil and good quality for a very good price.

[paulgatx]

Thanks for all of the tips and opinions on the use of this forum and anvils.  sorry about posting the CL add.  To clarify, I understand the risks of going with an imported product of questionable quality.  However, I am not one of those people who thinks everything made in the US is good and everything made outside is bad.  So I'd rather look at the specs and technical aspects and then make a decision based on that info + price + risk.  So for now what I'm looking for more is an assessment of the pros and cons of an anvil made of cast steel, 1053 steel, middle frequency induction quench, etc.

Also, I'm not interested in making my own at this point.  I understand this is much cheaper and offers a certain type of satisfaction, but I have the money and not really the time right now.  I'm also not interested in paying through the teeth for a vintage anvil.

JlBlohm, what do you like about the kanca anvil.  I have a centaur forge in town and am leaning towards the TFS 100lb from there.

Thanks again.

[Charles R. Stevens]

John isn’t recommending making your own, he is suggesting using a solid hunk of steel as an anvil, the London pattern anvil we all saw dropped on Willy E  Coyote is only about 200 years old. Much older is a simple block, lacking horn, heal, hardy or pitchel holes. If you have the coin to buy an anvil, a maluable iron one isn’t my first choice (tho both my primary anvils are just that in farrier patterns). If you have a tool supper who handles rigid tools (even home depo handles rigid tools) you can order a pendinghaus double horn. 

Anyway, the improvised anvil let’s you get back to forging wile you source an anvil, and takes the pressure off you wile you shop.  

[JHCC]

21 minutes ago, paulgatx said:

However, I am not one of those people who thinks everything made in the US is good and everything made outside is bad.

No-one's suggesting that (indeed, the Kanca anvil is made in Turkey; the Peddinghaus, Germany), just that your risk of disappointment with a reseller of an unknown product of questionable quality is pretty high.

 

 

[paulgatx]

Charles, thanks for the clarification on making vs improvising.  I rather like the features like horn, holes, step, etc. for what I have done and what I and my friend plan to do (knives, axes, decorative, tools).  Perhaps it's a function of the training I've already received and I don't realize how I could improvise those functions in a non-London pattern anvil.  I'll continue to research and learn.  Any opinion about cast steel vs ductile iron?

[JHCC]

Just now, paulgatx said:

Any opinion about cast steel vs ductile iron?

Cast steel is superior to ductile iron as an anvil material (better rebound, better durability), if somewhat louder.

[ThomasPowers]

If he's fairly close to you, go see it and evaluate it.  Not knowing where you are at of the over 100 countries that participate here I can't make a suggestion on how to find another smith to go with you to evaluate it. (Event the price is not indicative: Canadian dollars, Australian Dollars, Singapore Dollars,..., all at  differing value to US Dollars...)

The bounce test will tell a lot!  I'm interested to know how deep the hardening goes.  the 10 series steels are fairly shallow hardening and a hard thin surface over a soft body is great for abrasion resistance but may have issues with impact.  Also the plain 10 series doesn't have the alloying elements used to help refine grain in castings/heat treatment---which would lower the toughness a bit.

However as has been mentioned, blacksmithing has been done on a wide range of anvils over the last several thousand years and that wouldn't be the worst one by a long shot.  To me the question is: is it worth 3+ dollars a pound?  You have to make that call for yourself.  I have close to a ton of "old" anvils none of which has cost me over US$1.50 a pound; but I have put considerable time and effort hunting them down, (see the TPAAAT) and so you could argue I have more invested in them that way.  (As that was what I did for fun for many years I chalked the time and effort to up to "Entertainment".

[paulgatx]

Thanks for all of the quick replies.  I updated my profile to show my hometown as Austin, TX.  Unfortunately the guy doesn't have any in hand yet.  He is ordering them when he builds up enough pre-sales to justify the order.  This alone is leading me to stay away since I can't see the product first.  So this ultimately became an exercise in understanding if cast steel with a [name the method] hardened face is a good anvil.  He claimed the rebound was 75%, but that sounded high to my newbie ears.

Thomas, I agree that searching for a great deal and anvil is fun (and frustrating at the same time).  I've spent about 2-3 months looks since I started the blacksmithing classes and everything I've seen on CL, ebay, Nexdoor, FB, etc. is > $5/lb for new or vintage.  My guess is that 2-3 months is not nearly long enough.  Perhaps I'm not looking at the right reputable new dealers. centaur forge is certainly not cheap.  Any recommendations on vendors?

The good thing is that I can apprentice at the smithy for free (pay for steel only) until I get my own shop finished. I still have a lot of research on propane forges to do, too, so I'll be visiting that section of the forum soon.

Price is in US$.  For reference, the TFS 100lb I'm looking at is $580 and the Kanca 110lb is $660.

[ThomasPowers]

Please read about the TPAAAT and how to find anvils NOT being sold by people trying to make money off of selling them!  You seem to be hunting in the more expensive locations and being surprised at the prices.  The most important thing is to get off the computer and go talk with people!  Last anvil I dug up was owned by a lady in our church in her 90's---not a "vendor", not on the internet; but she had a very nice anvil back in her shed that she wasn't using....  I was once given a Swedish cast steel anvil by a retired rancher; not on the internet, not trying to make money selling stuff.

I assume you are hooked up with the Balcones Forge ABANA Affiliate down Austin way.  Perhaps I'll get a chance to visit sometime when I'm making my yearly trip to the Mothership in Austin/Round Rock/Parmer...

[paulgatx]

Thomas, oh boy did you send me on a wild goose chase to find what TPAAAT was (did you throw in the third "A" just to mess with me?  haha).  Google apparently doesn't know about your prowess either.  Joking aside, sounds like I need to start talking to right people.  The upper middle class suburbanites in my hood are not producing anything useful at the moment.  I'm aware of Balcones Forge but will give them a closer look.  'The classes I've been taking are through a place called Pioneer Farms where they have a period-accurate (late 1800s) smithy, so all of my knowledge and experience at the moment is through them, and that's where I'll be able to apprentice if I choose.

[ThomasPowers]

Thomas Powers Applied Anvil Acquisition Technique?  3 A's just like on the shirt!

And while the hit rate is lower, even in suburbia there are some anvils quietly hiding in garages and basements (in places that have basements...)  Of course they tend to be wildly priced, (from "get it out of here" to: "must be solid silver!")

[paulgatx]

Interesting, 99% of the posts referencing TPAAAT call it TPAAT ... guessing everyone took the Applied out and consider it more theoretical?

[paulgatx]

Nevermind, I was not searching at the top level.  14 pages of TPAAAT and 3 pages of TPAAT.  Anyway, appreciate the advice again. 

[ThomasPowers]

They just need to buy the TPAAAT shirt from Glenn!

One thing I've noticed is that many people don't realize that anvils were more common in cities than in the country back in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

[jlblohm]

Well i would go with the kanca because they are forged steel over ductile iron as mentioned. Also on Alibaba.com it is mentioned that there is a one month wait for the anvils to reach mainland port so it could be a long wait. Now for the quality control with these anvils have a look at my review on the princess auto anvil. The rebound is awesome but the quality if the finish is questionable. These anvils are made in the same factory as the anvils this guy is trying to "sell".

I am a firm beliver that the older anvils are better to an extent. But the kanca is on the higher level of quality. Ductile iron is an OK anvil alloy but not number one. The top of the line would be something like a rhino anvil because the steel is air hardening tool steel and is hardened all the way through. Hoffman anvils are top quality as is the holland anvil. They are both H13 tool steel. Peddinghaus and kanca are the only forged anvils i k ow of. Princess auto sells an anvil they claim is forged but its from china and only 66lbs so i question it. There is a lot of options for new anvils. I would highly recommend doing a few hours of research before settling on anything.

 

[JHCC]

2 minutes ago, JlBlohm said:

Hoffman anvils are top quality as is the holland anvil.

The Holland anvil is made by IFI member foundryguy; there are some posts about it in the "Show me your anvil" thread, such as this one:

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/1085-show-me-your-anvil/?do=findComment&comment=590950

[jlblohm]

1 minute ago, JHCC said:

foundryguy

Im planning on having luch with him at a local bar that has some amazing burgers. He only lives about 40 minutes from me. Seems like a really nice guy. He has a facebook page called holland anvil. 

[JHCC]

If you both lived near me, you could have lunch at a local place called "The Foundry".

[jlblohm]

That would be cool! I wonder if they cook the food over molten metal.

You are not that far from us. One of these days i might be in your neighborhood and hungry. If i am im getting ahold of you!

[ThomasPowers]

I've cooked food over/in a bloomery furnace; but that was just magnetite and charcoal; I'd be suspicious of cooking over a lot of molten metals/alloys.  arsenical copper for instance...

[jlblohm]

I would never really eat food cooked over molten metal but the name of the restaurant would suggest something like that. It is still a catchy name and i would have to eat there because of it.