Mission Impossible W/Pictures

[Alan Evans]

You sound defensive. I am not arguing with you. You posed a problem and I and others have been trying to help. 

Joel's video clearly shows the viable method with which to prepare the workpiece and secure the flat stock to the jig...my post preceding his video contained descriptions of viable methods which also describe the preparation of the workpiece before taking it to the jig.

The key point is that you don't just take a lump of straight bar (or even a lump of straight bar with a hook on the end of it) to a scroll jig, you start the scroll over the anvil so that you do indeed have sufficient clamping area available to hold it to the jig. You do not rely on the jig to form the centre and the initial spring from the centre of the scroll...that is your job.

I am certainly not being prescriptive when I describe the properties and characteristics that a conventional scroll contains...but it is well worth knowing them even if only to avoid making them conventional.

The flat spot in your OP scroll was caused by lack of preparation of the workpiece prior to putting it onto the jig. But now that you know that, you can choose to produce them with or without the flat spot.

You have ignored or rejected our suggestions, and found your own solution...good for you.

Alan

 

[SReynolds]

 Nothing is ignored, rejected nor defensive. I cannot show you what I'm  making. I dont have any. The stock cannot be clamped to the jig. There is a 90° bend on it. Supposed to be there. What you see above in a picture is not what I'm  making. That was demonstrating the jig isn't  going to work for this project w/o modifications.

This is a very complex scroll. It has a candle cup and drip pan riveted to the scroll. With a foot on the non scrolled end.

There is a short 90° bend on each end. Lorelei Sims makes one. Featured in hwr book.  This is similar. But I have added a rivet and a drip pan. Much more complex. The drip pan is 1/2 as thick as the flat stock scroll. When you heat the scroll, the drip pan burns away. Thus another problem to overcome. Again, hers is a candle cup only. No pan. No rivet. Simifies the work. Her cup has a small rivet forged at the base of cup. 

Be happy to take a picture of her project so you understand what this is. However its a scroll with a candle cup mounted at the top.

But who builds candle holders which directs melted wax to run down the fixture onto the surface which it sets? Apparently  Lorelei Sims.  Mine will have the drip pan.

This jig I modified is intended for this task. Not universal for scrolling. 

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Reynolds, 

        I make mine from one piece of 1/2 inch stock with no interruptions or welds and only one rivet. Just 7 hours to make free hand. 

Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

[SReynolds]

Those are quite nice. What are the two scrolls called at the base, where it is rolled tightly?

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Reynolds, 

        I make mine from one piece of 1/2 inch stock with no interruptions or welds and only one rivet. Just 7 hours to make free hand. 

Forge on and make beautiful things 

Jim

 Just a style of penny scrolls.. Yes the ends are tapered long and thin than rolled up for the volume.. I learned that years ago from Peter Ross

[Alan Evans]

Traditionally those are called rolled snub scrolls over here, and are the type I was referring to in my earlier post that I made on the Davies Brothers' restoration at Erddig.  The same shape but forged from solid would be a solid snub, and if the solid snub was hammered flat it would be a penny end...though penny ends are normally made from flat section and twisted 90˚ to align with the taper or the scroll. The trick I was taught to get a rolled snub tight, was after tapering the scroll length, to fishtail the end and cut out a Vee notch about a third of the width. Roll the snub up good and tight and then hammer on the ends to knock the fishtail tip ends in which filled any and all of the gaps in the centre.

I am afraid I give up with your OP problem. You had apparently made your mind up that a locking post was the only solution and could not understand why it was not necessary...and I rather think you still don't. 

And yes, you ignored a number of questions I asked in earlier posts, and yes, you have rejected the quality advantage of starting the scroll on the anvil and using the jig just to complete the less critical part away from the eye/snub, which is how scroll jigs have traditionally been used by others. The locking post will always be a compromise, and is the reason for the kink and/or flat at the heart of so many commercial scrolls.

However you have found a solution which enables you to make it to the form and quality that you desire, which is all you need. Good.

The candle sconce and drip pan problem that you have now introduced is good from the point of view that it gave Jim a reason for posting his rich piece...But in answer to your question 

2 hours ago, SReynolds said:

But who builds candle holders which directs melted wax to run down the fixture onto the surface which it sets? Apparently  Lorelei Sims.

...and you can add me. I often try and design candle sconces so that not only does the wax run down, albeit onto the base of the fixture, but the candle itself will burn right down until the stub also drops onto the base...effectively self-clearing. I dare say Jim's one will also be self-clearing with the right burning rate candle.

Alan

 

[SReynolds]

That copper piece  appears to me as a drip pan. Lorelei's holder is a cup the base of candle fits into snugly. The wax will pass down candle base and fall to whatever is supporting the scroll. 

I want the drip pan. 

[Joel OF]

13 hours ago, SReynolds said:

The purpose?  There was not any viable method inwhich to secure the flat stock to the jig.

It's quite often the case that with jigs and scroll jigs in particular, that you have to pre-forge the ends of your bar at the anvil to roughly the desired shape to help the hot steel take to the jig shape that you want.

What's done is done and you've got your specific customized jig now that suits your needs, so that's great, but the additional stoppers welded in probably were not required, and if this method is applied in the future, could actually cause you problems. (Explained later in reply) It's probable that you could have forged the angled end as you require at the anvil + a small curve behind the angled end which approximately matches the beginnings of the scroll jig (of which we understand you're not using the whole thing, only a portion). That would allow you to offer up your hot steel to the jig, then use some little tongs like the ones I used in the video to grip the hot steel to the jig at the start of the curve behind your angled end, this would give you sufficient hold against the jig, then you can pull it round to match the jig as required.

One helpful feature of scroll jigs is that after you've bent round your hot steel a certain distance you don't need to hold it against the jig with tongs/grips/F shaped bending forks etc, the steel holds itself.

For future reference and reduction in hair loss through frustration, remember that getting steel off a jig is often A LOT harder than getting it on WITHOUT deforming the hot steel from the required shape. (Do not tilt hot steel in trying to get it off a jig, only raise or lower it straight up/down). The more stoppers and corners that you put into an all-in-one jig, the more problems you will run into as the jig size increases. Steel contracts as it cools so it can clamp up against the jig making it hard to remove, (especially around tight corners like your angled end) which is why for some bending requirements there may be more than 1 jig used per required shape....or as I said earlier, just pre forge the end by hand as required.

Due the size of your jig much of what I just said won't be an issue because you'll be able to get the steel on and off before it all cools and locks itself against the jig, that's more for your benefit further down the line when you start using bigger jigs, or ones with more concentric curves.

One final thing I find about scrolling and curves in general is that it's very rare that you'll get the right shape in a linear process. I.e it's really rare you'll bend area 1, then area 2, then area 3, then area 4 and each one will successively be perfect and the whole piece is perfect. It's often the case that you get as far as area 3, then spot that area 1 has moved a little and needs a nudge area...so you're constantly moving backwards and forwards to keep the whole thing in check.

[jlpservicesinc]

23 hours ago, SReynolds said:

I have not posted nor taken a picture of the desired finished product. I dont have one. Other than the units I have made in past via a bending fork atop anvil.

Each end has a very short 90° bend. They are opposite one another. I tested the modified jig at home in my shop and the very short 90° bend slips directly down into the gap and is held there while I scroll the flat stock. Again, I dont employ the entire scroll.

If i desire to simply scroll for a common scroll I use the any of the bending forks or one of the home- made jigs with various sized collars to achieve desired size.

The purpose?  There was not any viable method inwhich to secure the flat stock to the jig.

If you are trying to copy a gate all ready fabricated (made).. Its the reason why the 90° at the end.. The bars are fed into a slot and then the material is pulled into the dies..  

From a hand work stand point.. Those types of scrolls are useless to try to recreate as you can buy them from a catalog or build a DIE for forming them on a 3/4" ratchet.. The jig really isn't a jig at all but a slotted piece and they are all formed cold..   

Opposite scrolls are called S scrolls and  scrolls landing on the same side are C scrolls..  I personally don't like scrolls formed on machines like this.. I like a hand made scroll as I like the flow better..  To me these scrolls are just  "WRONG".. 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

I had a student last weekend who wanted to use a jig to make his S hook.  I told him that if he wanted to replicate machine made stuff he'd need to sell them at machine made prices and I was trying to teach him to use his eyes and arm to get what he needed as this was a class to build skills to be transferred to other projects.

[SReynolds]

Joel OF

I have watched a video provided many times. I understand what you mean about locking onto the jig as well as starting the scroll on the anvil. I do use pliers such as yours for many scrolling fixtures.

I will have time this week to experiment with the jig.  Thanks for the video.

[SReynolds]

Work in progress. Needs a bit fine tuning. Another side note problem is the availability of proper sized candles. Small candles won't  due in these cups. I pitty the customer who trys small candles. They will curse me.

 

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Reynolds,

            I think you should give more consideration to your design it is way to top heavy and lacks enough footprint to keep it stable.  Just this ol boys 2c who has made a bunch of candle holders.  A few others will chime in with opinions.  

      Forge on and make beautiful things

       Jim

      

[SReynolds]

It is 1.5" wide flat stock. You'd have to tip it over on purpose.  But no, not my design.  This is a project in the blacksmith book by Lorelei Sims. But have added a drip pan to catch melting wax, as opposed to running it down onto the table of which it rests.

[jlpservicesinc]

Not bad.. It might be a camera parallax angle problem but the scroll looks side heavy...   (IE off centered)...  But overall I think it's a success.. I'd be concerned with not enough stability myself also... A candle falling over is not a bright future..