Gijotoole Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 BLUF: is there a minimum layer count that I should reach for pattern welds to look good? Are there benefits to certain patterns as opposed to others? So this is the third time I've tried to weld and the first success. I realized that my homemade trash can forge was getting plenty hot but it was an oxidizing atmosphere so that was probably it. I adjusted my burner (correctly) and blammo! Welded first time. So I wanted to try my hand at pattern welding but only have a hammer and my 35kg steel bick. I started with 7 layers, 4-1095, 3-15n20, and have folded twice (28 layers) with no apparent inclusions, delaminating, or cold shuts. I'll probably do one more fold, stock is getting thin, before forging the shape and was thinking of a twist or a ladder pattern. I started with .125" 1095 and .049 of 15N20. I got it from Jantz because Aldo charges me $50 shipping for one .125"X1.5"X48" bar. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Layer Count to look good: What looks good to YOU! I've seen great looking low layer count stuff---like 13 layers in a twist pattern and great looking stuff so finely layered you pretty much have to use a magnifier to see them. Note that after around 4 times cycled through welding temp, fairly fine layers will equalize in carbon content if no carbon migration barriers are used. Benefits to certain patterns. Please tell me if I should buy a smart car, a pickup truck, a boat or a rocket ship? I am not going to tell you what I need to do with it; but tell me! for example: Since you will be only using this for decorative sheet metal work some of the larger impressed patterns will be best. If you are doing reproduction of turkish blades twist patterns will predominate. Have you read Hrisoulas' The Pattern Welded Blade yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 I'm planning on making a small blade with it - something like a mora-type knife. I didn't know if a twist - I'd like to try that one - would yield a good blade at such a low layer count. I figured that, with 1095 and 15N20, I wouldn't have a big issue with carbon migration. This is more of a "first-time try" at this new method than a "beginning of production" process. I've been a stock-removal guy since I first failed at forging (coil springs) while in Germany a couple years ago but with good known material flat stock and an understanding wife I've been able to start hammering again. Right now I have something that looks like this but cleaned-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEAP of JEEP Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 I'm no expert, but can show some pictures of different layer counts I've done that might help you decide how far you want to take it. This was my attempt at a dog star pattern with 178 layers This was 176 layers too, but I forged the final knife on is side to show all the straight layers. This one was 280 layers with two twists after the final two folds. And this one was one of my earliest ones with 72 layers and just a random pattern. All of them were done by hand, no press or power hammer, and they were all done with either 1080 & 15n20 or 5160 &15n20. I'm still trying to figure it all out myself, but maybe these pics will give you some ideas of where you want to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Thanks, guys. I'm thinking I'll just forge my billet into a square-ish bar and then give it a couple twists before flattening it back out to the knife shape. Heap, do you let your stock rest in vermiculite or just sit in the forge to anneal it? I usually keep my coil-spring knives in the forge overnight and it seems to do the trick - I haven't had any go crazy since doing that. i have some Koa and some monkey pod sitting around so I'll probably try to do the handle with that. I'll post pics of the final product when it's close to completion/done for group critique. Edited June 6, 2016 by Gijotoole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 In my opinion the layer count seems to look best in the 80-200 range. Like you I hand forge my billets and don't want to over work myself. There are several things that can enhance the pattern. Two such things are blade style and handle material/style. A small thin blade doesn't typically look good with a low layer count, while a large chefs knife can. Look around a blades you like and try to copy those styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foundryman Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 It's worth remembering that layer count is relative, 100 layers in a billet finishing at 3/8 thick is going to much bolder than 100 layers in a billet 1/8 thick. Also I was taught to forge bars to round before twisting, it helps stop the corners tearing and avoids cold shuts, I don't know how true this is as I've seen people twisting square billets fairly frequently but it's what I was taught and therefore what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEAP of JEEP Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 5 hours ago, Gijotoole said: Thanks, guys. I'm thinking I'll just forge my billet into a square-ish bar and then give it a couple twists before flattening it back out to the knife shape. Heap, do you let your stock rest in vermiculite or just sit in the forge to anneal it? I usually keep my coil-spring knives in the forge overnight and it seems to do the trick - I haven't had any go crazy since doing that. i have some Koa and some monkey pod sitting around so I'll probably try to do the handle with that. I'll post pics of the final product when it's close to completion/done for group critique. I've always just used the forge. When I'm done for the day, I just leave the coal piled up... its anthracite, so I don't have to worry about it going out... and put the blade in the middle of the pile. I think it still cools down to quickly for me to to say I've properly annealed it... usually cooled down in 4 to 5 hours, but I've not had any issues drilling holes in the tang or anything, so it must be softening the steel enough... maybe just a couple of normalizing cycles would do the same.. I don't know... still to new at this myself, but it works for me, so don't know that I will change up the routine any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Agreed that more round than square is preferable for twists - I have a billet that is more wide than tall at the moment so square-ish is a starting point. The steel I started with was 1.5" wide and I'd like to get it back to that for the final shape. It'll probably be a small blade, though, because I'm not too good at moving metal with the hammer at the moment and anticipate some serious grinding at the end. I'll be away from the house for a few days but I'll see what happens when I get back. Thanks for all the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 20 hours ago, jmccustomknives said: In my opinion the layer count seems to look best in the 80-200 range. Like you I hand forge my billets and don't want to over work myself. There are several things that can enhance the pattern. Two such things are blade style and handle material/style. A small thin blade doesn't typically look good with a low layer count, while a large chefs knife can. Look around a blades you like and try to copy those styles. Scale your layer count to the size of the blade makes perfect sense, I never thought of it that way. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 On another note, my Nimba Titan just shipped today! I guess I'll have to start a new billet when that gets here - an inaugural project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Do you have it's new home cleared and swept? Are you driving the Missus crazy, wolfing meals, getting up in the middle of the night to check and running to the front window to see if it's here yet? Have you finished selecting which hammer you're going to use for her first time? Having dreams about how she likes, no DEMANDS you play rough? Now go take a cold shower and get back to work. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 I got a new rounding hammer just for this occasion and know a guy at the shipyard to try to get some crane cable for cable Damascus. I have the lumber for the stand but need to get it assembled and treated. I have to keep her outside so I need to find a way to protect her from daily rains and weather. So much to do with so little time! I just want her to be happy.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Spray your gear with LPS-3. It leaves a pretty durable coat of hard wax and contains rust inhibitors in the mix. Good stuff. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 We have a grainger on the island that sells that stuff, I think. I'll look into it. Pattern welds are a disease, I believe. I'm already looking at what else I can get ahold of to make another billet. Does anybody know how hard it is to forge weld stainless? I have a bunch of 316 (or something similar) that people have given me thinking I could use it on something. I've made tongs with it, but that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 11, 2016 Author Share Posted June 11, 2016 I decided to make it easy - 28 layers with (so far) good welds. Here is what I hammered out today. Lessons: 1. keep metal hot and close to if not at welding temp to prevent delaminating at the edges. 2. Ensure the tip is curved hard down to the cutting edge before forging to make sure it reaches knife shape after hammering the bevel. 3. Don't breathe borax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEAP of JEEP Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 Another lesson to keep in mind... when forging knifes out of damascus, it will show more layers if you grind the bevels, rather than forge them. I learned that lesson the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 11, 2016 Author Share Posted June 11, 2016 Good point. I have PLENTY of grinding to do. The edge is almost 1/8" thick, so there's room for waves. It's normalizing in the forge right now and I have 24hr duty tomorrow so I'll have to wait until Sunday to start grinding. After another round of normalizing, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEAP of JEEP Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 Make sure you normalize after grinding, before you heat treat. Grinding can add a lot of stresses to the steel. Are you aware that normalizing is a heat treatment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 11, 2016 Author Share Posted June 11, 2016 Word. I have a separate smaller HT oven (2x k30 IFBs from a kiln that I use ICW a propane torch) for my hardening/normalizing. It's way faster than heating up the forge and I can use the propane torch to give it a nice even heat and then leave it to cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 It's here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Ooooh PRETTY! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 I've been busy with work and building a bench and some other stuff and haven't been able to get back to the knife. I was hoping to get some work done on it tomorrow but a surprise afternoon meeting just killed that idea. Ugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijotoole Posted June 17, 2016 Author Share Posted June 17, 2016 GYAAHHH! I have a big flux inclusion right in the middle of the blade. It's under a nickel layer so it's not that thick, but I'm not sure how to get rid of it without grinding through it. Any advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 17, 2016 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Flux is water soluble, expose it with a drill or sharp chisel and dissolve it out in boiling water. By expose I mean just a nick or two so the water can get at the flux. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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