Hay Budden

[xulgiy]

Good morning all,

In just purchased a Hay Budden that has some pretty serious chisel test scars on both sides.  I was able to made out a couple of letters, but for the most part I cant get too much info off it.  According to the scale its just shy of 200lbs and has an 1 1/8" hardie.  It sounds great and doesnt have too much wrong with it, bu the sides are a bit too rounded for me and the top needs to be resurfaced.  It looks like the waist was welded, so I'm assuming its a lter model without a tool steel plate top.  That being said, I have a friend who has a large surface grinder who will flatten the top for me, and I'll have him do that.  My question is : if the whole top half of the anvil is hardended, do i need to worry about how much is taken off before I get out of hard steel?

[Glenn]

Before you remove any of the face of the anvil, have you used the anvil ?

What did you find that the present face would NOT let you accomplish ?

 

[ThomasPowers]

YES  even if the whole top is high carbon steel only the top layer is hardened. Otherwise it would be prone to breaking in use.

Please post a picture of it. In the 35 years I have been smithing I have seen *3* anvils that I thought should be milled or ground on and I have seen over a hundred where the owner RUINED them by doing so when it was not needed!  FIRST DO NO HARM!  Many smiths tested the temper of chisels they made on the soft sides and body of their anvils---they didn't consider that a problem; you need not either!

[xulgiy]

Thanks for the replies.  I tried to upload photos, but I keep getting an error.  I guess I'm used to my old 120lb Wilkinsen that has about 1/4" round over near and far.  This one's close face is about 1/2" round and the far about 3/8 with a few small chips.  I want the top ground as it has some shallow chisel marks, and and about a 1/16" sway in the middle.  I can do it with an angle grinder, but my friend can get it dead level.

[Pat Roy]

I wouldn't worry about a 1/16" sway in the middle.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Well for many tasks dead level is much worse than 1/16" sway.  Why do you need it dead level?  Is there a working area in the sweet spot without chisel marks?  

I have an HB that was stored in an unheated shack in a swampy area in Ohio, USA, for over 50 years.  It's face had fine pitting from condensation over the entire surface.  I brushed off the loose rust and started forging on it and a decade later the sweet spot is smooth and shiny just from working on it.  I have a large anvil that is dead flat, (515# Fisher),  and right next to it is a 93# Arm and Hammer that has a lovely sway to it that I use for straightening knives.

[JME1149]

Rather than grind the top surface to restore big corner radii, you could just make up a block with a stem that fits the hardie. Grind a different radius on each of the four sides of the block and you have more options than just re-doing the anvil. If you insist on grinding the anvil, why not dress the sides rather than the top? You'll make the face a bit narrower, but not noticeably so.

If you absolutely insist on grinding the face, make sure your buddy flips her upside down first and dresses the base (feet) to make them parallel to the existing face, the flip it back upright and kiss the face. This will remove the least amount of stock from the hardened face, but could still be enough to ruin the anvil.

Ultimately, it's your equipment and you can do whatever you want to it, we all just hate to see a century old piece of history get destroyed for future generations.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Xulgiy, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the Iforge gang live within visiting distance.

Please don't grind on that anvil the probabilities are much greater you'll do irreparable damage without improving it at all. 1/16" sway is insignificant it's not even enough to make straightening work easier. If you don't know how a sway makes straightening work easier you probably don't have enough experience to make a dead flat surface work for you if you needed one at all.

That's not a put down, nobody is born knowing this or any craft, we all started and many of us have spent decades learning new things. We're here to share what we've discovered and help each other succeed and we want you to be a success. Getting in a hurry will set you up for failure as sure as believing what you see on Youtube. There is no, ZERO, need to try making your anvil perfect right now, it's not going to change for a decade or so unless you do something brutal to it. You can always thin the face plate if down the road you learn you need a flat face.

Chisel marks in the sides are meaningless, even if you're just trying to pretty it up for a fire place decoration some scars lend authenticity to the art and trying to grind it to perfection will seriously lower it's value.

That old lady's a tool not a decoration, she's earned every mark and still has several generations of blacksmith in her. Please don't ruin a grand old lady in a vain attempt to make a tool perfect. Perfect doesn't exist outside of an art studio.

Frosty The Lucky.

[xulgiy]

I guess I'd like to have close to the same type of surface I'm used to?  It seems as if nobody thinks anvils should be messed with?  I'll get the chisel marks out and give it a whack...to see if I can get get used to it.  Just out of curiosity, if a little sway is good, do people actually dish their anvils out on purpose?  I'm no expert, but I have been pounding for a while, and have been to many shops.  I don't recall anyone along the trip saying that a sway backed anvil was better than a flat one.  What am I missing?

[xulgiy]

I appriciate everyone's comments and help.  Like I said, I'm no expert, as I'm a weekend worrior, and make mostly hardware (hinges, oxen yolk hardware, hooks, fireplace sets and the like).  I'm all for leaving it alone, i just would like some schooling in the "sway". theory.

Thanks again,

John

[ThomasPowers]

Well most old anvils have some sway from use and so don't need any added. As for the mechanics of it:  take a bent piece of steel and try to flatten it on a dead flat surface.  In general you will get some bounce back.  The trick is to go just a little past straight so it bounces back to dead straight.  I don't add it to a dead flat anvil, I just step over to the anvil that has the nicest sway for what I need to do.   In smithing smooth is better than flat and what you need is a smooth area to work that corresponds with your hammer's face---not all that large.

[xulgiy]

Makes perfect sense.  I'll try and get my pictures to load, so you all can see.  Again, I appriciate the help.

[Frosty]

John: (Boy is that easier to get my head around pronouncing than your web handle!)

It'll take you far less time and work getting used to a different surface than trying to replicate one. Don't ask me how I know. Oh alright ask but it's an old story about learning from my mistakes instead of someone elses.

If the face has chisel marks in it they're probably hammer out in use. You can gently tap them out with a smooth faced hammer reducing them to the point they don't effect the work.

As Thomas says straightening or bending steel it will rebound a bit once you stop  moving it. You need to take the piece past where you want it so it springs back to right. If you straighten at a high enough temperature the iron / steel has no rebound you run the risk of changing it's cross section, forging instead of just bending. Straightening hot steel on an anvil is a pretty tricky process that even experienced smiths mess up more often that we like.

If the work is narrow enough you can straighten over the hardy hole but if it has sharp inside edges you can mar the work. I prefer to straighten on a wood block with a wooden mallet. You can do it this way at a pretty high temp without damaging the texture or forging the steel provided you aren't too heavy handed about it. A smart rap is usually more than it needs unless it's heavy stock. I make my mallets from yard, garage, etc. sale wooden baseball bats. I pick up the old discard bats in the $0.50 ea. range or sometimes make the seller toss them into the deal while I'm dickering. ALWAYS counter offer at yard, garage, etc. sales, the worst can happen is they say no.

If down the road you need a polished surface it's easy to make a bottom tool with whatever surface, edges, shape, etc you need, weld a shank to it and drop it in the hardy hole.

One of the true joys of the blacksmith's craft is making your own tools, few things feel as good as using a tool you've made with your own hands be it ever so humble. Say a b'ball bat mallet.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[WL smith]

My anvil was owned by a chisel maker also. And he was proud of his chisels judging by the depth of the cuts. It also has sway But it works just fine! I was going to "fix" mine but never got around to it. Glad I never did. I just add to it's character.