One last thing for my forge

[Johnny40]

Hey, it's been awhile since ive logged in to this website ! (busy lately with school and other stuff) but I finally managed to complete my propane forge and made my own burner ! (was going to buy one but made one instead for 10$ instead of 120) The only thing i was wondering is, i know i need a regulator hooked up to my propane tank but will the regulator protect the tank from backfire and if not, what could i buy to not get backfire. I tested my forge with the burner directly hooked up to my propane tank just for this time but i dont wanna take the risk or blowing myself up. And also, I wanna know wich regulator you guys are using and where can I order one. (I have a 60$ budget for a regulator)

[ThomasPowers]

Propane cannot burn without the presence of oxygen.  The hose from the tank to the burner is filled with 100% propane.  If you are not using an oxy-propane system there is no pressurized Oxygen to find a way "upstream" and allow for a backflash. NO ARRESTOR IS NEEDED!

Now acetylene *WILL* exothermically disassociate WITHOUT the presence of oxygen and so it IS important to have a flashback arrestor.

[jcornell]

Do a search on Amazon for 0-30 propane regulator - in the USA I get two price points, $28 and $52.  Or look up High Temp Tools on the internet - they sell a nice regulator, but it's a bit more expensive.

[ThorsHammer82]

Mine cost me $28 from the local Propane supply. it's a 0-30 PSI regulator.

[Johnny40]

But do I really need a regulator? because couldn't I just put a (its called valve anti-retour in french) valve that protect from backfire on the entry of the fuel pipe? Because technically, a regulator is used to adjust the amount of propane you throw in the burner but can't I just adjust everything from the opening of my propane tank no? (im new in blacksmithing so if you can explain why the use of a regulator is important, explain it to me please.)

[cranky]

 

Now acetylene *WILL* exothermically disassociate WITHOUT the presence of oxygen and so it IS important to have a flashback arrestor.

Holy Cow Thomas its posts like this that have me in a sense of wow with you, just between you and me did you make up the term  exothermically disassociate and I can only guess but does it mean it burns?

I'm gonna start using that as code word with my wife..."hey baby wanna  exothermically disassociate with me tonight????

Sorry this might be a tad inappropriate but I am absolutely flabbergasted at the jargon you dumb XXX anvil beaters( this is said with the utmost sincere respect....as in cool is hot!) use. I'm not a overly stupid person and am amazed to think how close I came to spending my entire life without the thrill of ever hearing such a brainiac term  

And just to say something that IS fitting here there is no way you can control the pressure or volume of propane off the bottle valve... you need the regulator for safety and fine tuning  

Edited September 14, 2015 by cranky

[swedefiddle]

Johnny,

You do not have the control without a regulator!!!!!! Be safe, use a regulator.

Neil

[Latticino]

You can adjust the quantity of propane with a conventional valve, but it is very difficult.  The valve opens too quickly to be accurate, a very small change in handle position makes a great change in flow rate..  That is why regulators, with multiple turns to open slowly (called control valve authority), exist.  Spend a few extra bucks to get an actual regulator with a pressure gage.  Trust us, it is worth it.

[Frosty]

Johnny: NO you can NOT adequately control the propane flow with the tank valve. Trying is in fact dangerous as propane is not a pure gas and if the tank valve is NOT opened completely little bits of crud will naturally stick on the valve seats. They are also THE natural place for condensation to form. With various solids stuck to the valve seats two things happen when you close the vlave: the frozen condensates will score the seats making for a NON gas tight seal. Secondly the crud that gets caught in the condensates will REALLY score the seats. this is a good way to make your tank valve NOT shut the flow off. This is a B-A-D thing.

Propane burning appliances are NOT the place to pinch pennies, especially when you don't have a clue about what you're doing.

Propane can NOT flash back up the hose, NOT POSSIBLE. Now buy the proper equipment or put the tanks back on the BBQ and do something safer.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

Dave: No, Exothermically Disassociation is NOT burning, not even close even if Explosive Combustion usually occurs as in a secondary affect of C2H2 exothermically disassociating.

Acetylene is a very unstable gas, C2H2 and can break down into C2 and H2 WAY too easily for comfort and does NOT need an oxidizer. A shock, PSI much in access of IIRC 30 PSIA or spark can return to it's lowest energy state being carbon gas and hydrogen gas and seeing as it takes considerable energy to keep them in the compound acytelene it releases energy as it disassociates. This is what Exo (put out) Thermal (Heat) reaction means.

Because acet is such an unstable association of elements there are some pretty extreme measures taken to make it relatively safe to put it in a tank and use it in a torch. Acet tanks used to be filled with porous concrete but are now filled with I believe porous ceramic so the liquid can NOT slosh in the tank. Acetone is also placed in the tank for some chemistry voodoo that stabilizes the acet. Lastly Acet regulators have a 15lb. RED line above which it is NOT safe without the porous anti shock (slosh) media and acetone stabilizer.

You really WANT anti flashbacks on your acet torch for the simple "if a little is good a LOT must be better" myth most humans think applies. Being an equal pressure system (according to the molar weight of the elements) you never really want to turn the oxy pressure more than 2x the acet psig. A LOT of guys will tell you the secret about cranking the oxy pressure WAY high to cut "better." This can be catastrophically BAD as a chip popping back can clog the torch tip and guess what the oxy is set at a high enough pressure it CAN be forced back up the acet. hose.

Now you have a hose holding a really unstable gas being pressurized well above it's safe point by OXYGEN! Now you have a mixture of extremely flammable gas over pressured by oxy. All it needs is a spark right? HAH, No acetone, WAY over pressured so all it needs is a little shock, physical, electric or just squeeze it hard enough and it WILL spontaneously disassociate with a BIG release of HEAT. (the Exothermal part) The uncool thing is even after acet separates into Carbon and Hydrogen gas it's still thoroughly mixed with pure OXY.

And we get the ever popular FOE, that's like a Fuel Air Explosive but it's just a tad worse it's Fuel Oxygen Explosive. In a closed container, the hose.

Frosty The Lucky he lived through learning this stuff, some the hard way

Edited September 14, 2015 by Frosty

[cranky]

Frosty, Once again I am humbled with the knowledge of you fine people. While I knew the importance of flashbacks on my torch set......I never knew why they were important other than to prevent a backfire. I have been using Oxy Acet. torchs for better than 40 years and while I knew they were "dangerous" tools I never thought too much about it, if I read your post correctly this is the first time I ever knew that Acet. had hydrogen as a component in it..... now hydrogen I have a strong respect for (in fact we can call it a fear). Years and years ago, about 1983 or so I worked with a self-proclaimed scientist as a budding machinist as he tried to make a reliable hydrogen engine, I know nothing of his credentials, but only know his checks were good when he wrote them....that and the fact he had to rebuild his shop 3 times after small explosions leveled them.

While I claim to know "everything" and also claim to be within 2 and a half pages away from reading the internet.....I am amazed, humbled, and flabbergasted by the things that I learn here on a daily basis

And while true that as a machinist I am pretty much as good as I claim to be (altho my coworkers tell me that claiming that Jesus is my brother from another mother is a bit far fetched) I do hope to someday have someone such as frosty, wayne, or a dozen or more others here give me the title of " half axxed blacksmith"  

So my sincere apologies for making light of a serious subject....had i known how serious this was I would still have made the joke but been more sober about it

I wonder what ever happened to that scientist guy? I sure hope he didn't Exothermically Disassociated himself

I sure hope St. Peter doesn't have a naughty blasphemous list with my name on it.... send directly to HE double Hockey Sticks where he will be Exothermically Disassociated on a daily basis.

and lastly (and probably five steps over the line) I wonder if the little woman wants to have her brains Exothermically Disassociated tonight?

OH GET A REGULATOR JOHNNY......we don't want you getting Exothermically Disassociated please note the red color, it means very important

Good god why don't I ever get forbidden when I really think it would be best?

 

[Charlotte]

Twenty years in the Industrial Gas business and I've never read a better discussion than Frosty's   epistle on acetylene.  Should be sticky!. 

[Latticino]

Johnny: NO you can NOT adequately control the propane flow with the tank valve. Trying is in fact dangerous as propane is not a pure gas and if the tank valve is NOT opened completely little bits of crud will naturally stick on the valve seats. They are also THE natural place for condensation to form. With various solids stuck to the valve seats two things happen when you close the vlave: the frozen condensates will score the seats making for a NON gas tight seal. Secondly the crud that gets caught in the condensates will REALLY score the seats. this is a good way to make your tank valve NOT shut the flow off. This is a B-A-D thing.

Propane burning appliances are NOT the place to pinch pennies, especially when you don't have a clue about what you're doing.

Excellent point, and I agree completely.  Sorry I didn't get into more detail on the potential failure modes of using an isolation valve for flow control.  Needless to say, for safety it a very good idea to have both.  I just was noting that using the isolation valve for flow control was also a bad idea because it doesn't work well as a metering valve. 

Note that for complete disclosure there is also a phenomena called wire-drawing that occurs when an isolation valve is used for a long period for flow control and the small opening left results in high velocity fluid flow at the resulting orifice, which is not designed for same.  With the solids and condensates that Frosty mentioned rushing through this orifice at high velocity the seat gets eroded, leading to lack of ability to provide positive closure.  I'm not that familiar with the mechanism that Frosty is referencing for abrasion on the valve seat, but this wire drawing is a common result of misuse of isolation valves, especially in steam systems where use of the wrong type of metering valve is more common). 

Also, I don't know about your neighborhood, but around here code compliance requires both an isolation valve and flow control (pressure regulator), for gas piping installations.

[ThomasPowers]

I had a class once on Acetylene Safety taught by a company in the business.  Very well illustrated with multiple pictures of what happened when someone did "something wrong"; though sometimes they were just guessing what they had done as there wasn't enough left to really tell.   It went into detail on why there is a red line on an acetylene gauge; why there isn't much head room in an acetylene tank, why the tank is filled with a porous material saturated with acetone, why there is a maximum draw rate. And is basically Why I decided to go with propane and oxy-propane whenever I could... 

And I like words; though I might say "Hey baby lets get exothermic tonight!"  I don't think I would add in the "disassociate" as I would prefer to get exothermic in association with my wife...

Note that Acetylene tanks cannot be safely reused for *anything*; in reality I think they should be recycled through a bomb squad...especially if damaged.

[Johnny40]

Thanks everyone for the replies ! I learned so much from you people about acethylene and safety ! Im new to blacksmithing and forge so I need to be like a sponge and take every bit of knowledge that's available on this website. So I just need to get a regulator and then I can fully open my tank and control the flow with the regulator and everything will be safe ? CRANKY I also don't want to get exothermically disassociated so i'll listen to everyone here. Will something like this do the job?? http://www.amazon.ca/Bayou-Classic-7850-Adjustable-Regulator/dp/B000VXEW4G/ref=sr_1_44?ie=UTF8&qid=1442252281&sr=8-44&keywords=propane+regulator

[Johnny40]

http://www.amazon.ca/Barbour-International-M5HPR-30-Regulator-30-psi/dp/B007PS0938/ref=pd_sim_86_7?ie=UTF8&refRID=1FZR3071JZ3655YSZAN4
OR there's this one I can get.

[cranky]

Thanks Thomas, I sure wish I had read your post before approaching the missus. Perhaps she would have said "sure" instead of "why don't you Exothermically Disassociate yourself" 

Johnny I'm glad you're getting the regulator, even though i kind of made a joke of your post i learned so very much, my personal lessons taught to me on torch tanks, "hey be careful of them or you will blow us all up" that and the results of a guy that used his tanks as a work bench cutting off a piece of steel on his tailgate.... I wasn't there until after all was done and over but I do know there was a closed casket funeral for the guy (I was part of the first response team that arrived on scene...it wasn't till much later in the day that I found out what had happened.....truth be told I didn't even know there was a person involved for about an hour afterwards when parts started appearing)

Okay I have one more question for you all but it has nothing to do with this, so I'm gonna start a new post and hope you will stop by and check it out and even answer my question

[Johnny40]

Thanks Thomas, I sure wish I had read your post before approaching the missus. Perhaps she would have said "sure" instead of "why don't you Exothermically Disassociate yourself" 

Johnny I'm glad you're getting the regulator, even though i kind of made a joke of your post i learned so very much, my personal lessons taught to me on torch tanks, "hey be careful of them or you will blow us all up" that and the results of a guy that used his tanks as a work bench cutting off a piece of steel on his tailgate.... I wasn't there until after all was done and over but I do know there was a closed casket funeral for the guy (I was part of the first response team that arrived on scene...it wasn't till much later in the day that I found out what had happened.....truth be told I didn't even know there was a person involved for about an hour afterwards when parts started appearing)

Okay I have one more question for you all but it has nothing to do with this, so I'm gonna start a new post and hope you will stop by and check it out and even answer my question

I'll check it out, no worries! Im currently in school doing a DEP (that's how it's called here in montreal) to be a electromechanical engineer and we had a 60h module on welding and cutting with acethylene but they didn't really explain to us in detail about safety using those equipement, it was juste like "dont do this, this, and this or you will blow us all up and that's it." Thanks again everyone !