Bo T Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Never done maintenance on a blower. It turns with some vibration. It feels like the bearings are loose - sort of like loose bearings on the old Ashtabala bicycle cranks. No binding at all. The gears are in good shape. I've only taken the front blower cover and top off for a look. There is a little bit of play in the fan. I am having a little trouble loosening the nut holding the fan. How much force will that fan take?The fan blades are at right angle to the blower shaft and they appear to be undersized. They set about an inch from the top of the blades to the inside of the blower housing and about 1/4" from the sides. Is this normal?How many sets of bearings does this blower have?Thanks for any help on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brokkr Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 The "400" I bought arrived yesterday. I was also surprised at the clearance afforded the blades. Your estimations appear to coincide with the dimensions on my blower. This is a link to a very concise write-up on the Champion 400, the best I've found so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 You can remove the dust caps on the ends of the shafts and tighten the bearings if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 Brokkr,The rear cup over the blower shaft is threaded on mine. The shaft is keyed in the back but the nut isn't. When I tried to loosen the 1" fan nut the 3/4" nut in the back came loose instead. So it looks like I will need to get another nut for the back so I can keep the rear nut from turning and free the fan nut. HWooldridge,Yea, just found that my dust cap is threaded on. The rear bearings don't have any play in them and they look good. I think that I will need to get into the front bearings to smooth them up. I hope the front races are in good shape. I was just trying to avoid a trip to the hardware store as I don't have the correct threads on the nuts that I have.Do I just pull the dust caps off from either side of the upper and lower gear shafts adjust those bearings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Yes - pull the dust caps and you should see some type of keyed nut to adjust load. Might have a pin and castle nut configuration - I can't recall now; been about 15 years since I took one apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 Well this simple maintenance has turned into an undertaking. I've freed up all the dust cups, but the nut holding the fan will not come loose. I'm trying to figure a way to freeze the shaft. Tried to find a second nut to lock the rear one in place but the threads are a little different than the 20 TPI that are available for the 1/2" shaft. They are a little finer. I tried some medium locktite but wasn't strong enough. I am thinking about a self tapping sheared bolt remover. The shaft has a bore for the lathe chuck? I'm also thinking about epoxy (something that degrades at a lower temperature or in solvent). Any ideas or comments?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsoldat Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) Shoot I'd have to look but I'm reasonably sure that the threads will be 1/2 x 24 Yeppers, 1/2x 24tpi it is. Not sure whether one side is left handed but it may be something to inspect for. Edited August 8, 2015 by Dogsoldat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 I think the nut holding the fan on is RH. There isn't much of it showing so I'll get a magnifying lens and check tomorrow. The nut for tightening the front bearings might be LH. I'll check once I pull the cup protecting the bearings. I'm not sure how they held the shaft in the old days. I'm thinking there might have been a 1/2" ?tab? wrench that fit the slot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kerns Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Bo T, let me know if you have any luck getting the fan nut off. I just got a 400 myself and am stuck at that step. Any advice for getting the dust caps off? Edited August 19, 2015 by Patrick Kerns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Bo T, let me know if you have any luck getting the fan nut off. I just got a 400 myself and am stuck at that step. Any advice for getting the dust caps off?Have you tried a pipe wrench? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted August 19, 2015 Author Share Posted August 19, 2015 I cleaned them up and put some penetrating oil around the cup. I used a channel lock set to the right size. I had a little problem with one cup but it came loose after a while. I'm still stymied by the fan nut. I tried some epoxy on the rear threads to try and hold the rear nut but it wouldn't hold. I'm gonna order a 1/2 x 24 tpi nut for the next try. A pipe wrench should work fine. Let me know how it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kerns Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 David and Bo T, thanks for the suggestions. I'll pick up some penetrating oil to replace the 3 in 1 I've been using and try a pipe wrench. Need to get a pipe wrench (all the plumping I've done has been PVC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 On the rear of the worm shaft, you have the cone nut riding on the bearing balls and the rear hex nut. Between them is a washer with an ID tab that rides in the shaft slot. The purpose is to adjust the cone for fit then put the tab washer on and tighten the lock nut. The tab washer would keep the lock nut from changing the setting of the cone. You should notice that on the cone nut, there are two wrench flats near the large end. If you can fit a thin wrench to go over these flats and hold it, you would be able to turn off the front fan nut.One piece of advice I have from personal experience, if you don’t absolutely have to remove the worm shaft, don’t touch it. Trying to adjust the end play to get the worm gears properly aligned so the handle turns smoothly in both directions is a pain.Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 On the rear of the worm shaft, you have the cone nut riding on the bearing balls and the rear hex nut. Between them is a washer with an ID tab that rides in the shaft slot. The purpose is to adjust the cone for fit then put the tab washer on and tighten the lock nut. The tab washer would keep the lock nut from changing the setting of the cone. You should notice that on the cone nut, there are two wrench flats near the large end. If you can fit a thin wrench to go over these flats and hold it, you would be able to turn off the front fan nut.One piece of advice I have from personal experience, if you don’t absolutely have to remove the worm shaft, don’t touch it. Trying to adjust the end play to get the worm gears properly aligned so the handle turns smoothly in both directions is a pain.Right now I amGood luck and keep us posted on your progress. OOPs! I've already pulled the washer and cone (and dropped several bearings). I've noted how the gears bind when the worm isn't aligned. I'll clean and grease the bearings and set the worm gear in position, then retighten the rear cone. I've discovered that the compression nut for 5/16" tubing has 1/2-24 threads. Hopefully, that will work as a jam nut and allow me to loosen the fan nut. From what I have read, I am pretty sure the play and vibration is due to the front bearings/races/cones needing work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kerns Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Bo T, I think that is where most of the noise on my 400 is coming from as well. Glad I'm not the only one overhauling one of these ancient machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bill Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Last year I entered "champion 400 forge blower" in my computer and found more information than I could possibly ever use regarding servicing/repairing the Champion 400 blower, Practical Machinist forum being the most detailed. CAUTION! Sounds like much can (and does) go awry if these are not serviced correctly, i.e. damage to the unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 Yea. I've read a lot and have been paying attention to those "what not to do" suggestions. I.e. don't lock the brass gears to remove the fan nut. But, I may need to pull the gears to get to the front bearings. If I cannot get the fan nut off then I may have to clamp the worm gear shaft just behind the front bearings to get enough leverage to remove the fan nut. But that is in case my other efforts fail. I have a list of reference material that I am going to get and one includes DVDs on the Champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Here's something I picked up a while ago, I think it was from the patent office. Hope it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kerns Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Here's something I picked up a while ago, I think it was from the patent office. Hope it helps. JME, that is MASSIVELY helpful. Thank you so much.Also, the pipe wrench worked like a charm on the bearing dust caps, thank you for the recommendation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kerns Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Update - lagging a bit in my own breakdown efforts. My 400 is really stupendously coated in grim and greasy grit. I've decided I'm going to have to disassemble it completely after I took a look at the gears and found there is SAND in the gearbox mixed in with the copious grease and oil. I won't sleep well at night if I don't get every last grain of sand out of the machine because I assume the bearings will seize up in a year or two of normal use.I've gotten the dust caps off and removed the rear fan shaft lock nut. Pictures are attached. You can probably see some of the pitting on the rear fan shaft bearings in the picture.As with Bo, I've been reading a lot of warnings about what not to do and am going slowly at every step to make sure I understand what I'm doing before I do it. Next step is going to be sorting out locking the fan shaft like Bo was working on.I'm beginning to wonder why this machine was setup at a 90 degree angle vs. all the other blowers I've seen that are parallel to the fan. It seems like it makes the gearbox necessarily complex. Edited August 21, 2015 by Patrick Kerns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Looks like that bronze worm gear is really worn. I still recommend not futzing around with it. Any misalignment between that and the shaft when you reassemble will accelerate the wear and shorten the life span. Use some degreaser or kerosene to clean/flush out the inside well then recoat it with motor oil. A few grains of sand isn't going to hurt anything.As for the bearings, the rear shaft is just loose ball bearings. The other three sets can be replaced with bicycle race ball bearings. I don't recall the size but I'm pretty sure all three are the same size. When you pull the handle off, is there a lot of wear between the shaft and dust cover, or is it a nice fit? Oblong/oversized hole would indicate a worn cone nut.If you insist on removing the fan, try a large channel lock grabbing the hex between the fan blade arms while you break the nut loose with a socket. Worked for me, just be careful not to break the fan arms (grip it tightly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Kerns Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 JME - thanks for the tips. If I were to disassemble it, how should I go about ensuring the worm gear and the shaft are aligned properly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Realistically, trial and error until it feels right. Remember that you are dealing with side-to-side alignment as well as front-to-back if you tear it down all the way (remove the bronze worm from it's shaft). And you have to leave enough end play in the shafts so they turn easily. Meaning, if you tighten the cone nut too much, the bearings will put a bind on the shaft and it will be hard to turn the crank. Either way, it's your equipment, you do what you feel is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Looks like that bronze worm gear is really worn. I still recommend not futzing around with it. Any misalignment between that and the shaft when you reassemble will accelerate the wear and shorten the life span. Use some degreaser or kerosene to clean/flush out the inside well then recoat it with motor oil. A few grains of sand isn't going to hurt anything.As for the bearings, the rear shaft is just loose ball bearings. The other three sets can be replaced with bicycle race ball bearings. I don't recall the size but I'm pretty sure all three are the same size. When you pull the handle off, is there a lot of wear between the shaft and dust cover, or is it a nice fit? Oblong/oversized hole would indicate a worn cone nut.If you insist on removing the fan, try a large channel lock grabbing the hex between the fan blade arms while you break the nut loose with a socket. Worked for me, just be careful not to break the fan arms (grip it tightly).Dang it, that is too easy:( I'll give it a try tomorrow. Doesn't the fan need to be removed to service/repair the front bearings? Making sure that the rear ones are adjusted properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 An impact wrench, either pneumatic or electric will break the nut loose easily. You can usually just hold on to the fan hub with a gloved hand. The fan hub is threaded as well and make sure the set screw is removed and a some penetrating oil helps. After you get everything off a thread file is easier and cheaper to find and use than trying to locate a die for the unusual thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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