phabib Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm getting ready to place the order for a power hammer and I have the choice of dies made from 1045 or H13. I have looked here for a topic discussing if H13 was worth the money but can't find it. I looked on the broader interwebs and I get the impression that H13 is not worth paying for because a power hammer die will never get hot enough for it to make a difference.Opinions?I'm thinking of getting the hammer with a combo drawing/flat die, a drawing die, a fullering die, and a couple of flat dies which I can use as is, or as material for anything special I may want to make. Does that sound reasonable? Getting them with the hammer will be way cheaper than getting them at a later time.Thanks for your thoughts on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I hate loathe and detest combination dies. I have a barely used set sitting beside my hammer taunting me with their lack of use. Waste of money.Even before I had a number of hammers set up I hand ground some straight fuller dies about a Ø5'' curve. Those and a drop-on flat tool about 7" square reproduce the flat and the bick available to you with a standard hand anvil. I used these for more than ten years for all my forging. Then I discovered bigger hammers and plain flat pallets.If you are working very small section then maybe, just maybe you might find a use for combination dies. But with a set of plain pallets and a few spring and top tools you are even more versatile.Alan (after two tumblers of wine on an empty tummy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Alan (after two tumblers of wine on an empty tummy) You have to Add. ! Either more wine or some food , maybe some of both ? Yiamas! Edited July 30, 2015 by ianinsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I was trying to justify / explain my uncharacteristic vehemence!And it was food.Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phabib Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Nothing wrong with strong opinions. Thanks for the reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Most folks use flat dies these days. I have combination dies and they work very well for what I built them for. (colonial strap hinges. I can make the entire hinges without changing dies or using tooling. As Alan somewhat contradictory explanation, you have the same as the anvil provides, a flat and a crown. I was the machinist in a forge shop for a while. I made slightly crowned dies and flat dies and they already had a few sets so not everyone gets away with solely flat dies, though some would lead you to think that. I would do a lot of research before committing to stuff you will never use, but it is a good idea to have extra dies for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 FX2 from Finkle in Chicago.If those are your choices I say H13.....IF they are properly heat treated. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phabib Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 Thank you for taking the time to respond. What is the advantage of the H13? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I agree with Ric, If those are your choices.... Its not that I think H13 is necessary (I have built several sets of H13 dies, including a set for a 200 lb Chambersburg) But I think 1045 is a poor choice. I now make all my dies out of 4340. I would not use anything else. H13 is just super expensive and it really gains nothing. You dont need a hot work steel for large section power hammer dies. Nothing wrong with them other than cost and difficulty in heat treating them properly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironwolfforgeca Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 drill bolt hole in the side of the flat dies then make tooling plates that bolt on / U shapedI have seen this done time & time again !! search Tom Clark for oneI have done this to yang #33 works great ! & the tooling block I built can work spring tooling from other Lg-er hammer'sa friend down the road has one LOL ! so his tooling & mine work on 3 hammers the forth one is in the works Mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Most folks use flat dies these days. I have combination dies and they work very well for what I built them for. (colonial strap hinges. I can make the entire hinges without changing dies or using tooling. As Alan somewhat contradictory explanation, you have the same as the anvil provides, a flat and a crown. I was the machinist in a forge shop for a while. I made slightly crowned dies and flat dies and they already had a few sets so not everyone gets away with solely flat dies, though some would lead you to think that. I would do a lot of research before committing to stuff you will never use, but it is a good idea to have extra dies for sure. Somewhat under explained rather than contradictory I think...but then I would say that wouldn't I! Explanation...With a hand anvil you have a roving top tool (called a hand hammer) which can be used off-set half on and half off the anvil edge which enables you to do one sided shoulders. If you took two hand anvils and inverted one as a top tool (AKA combination/abomination tools) you lose that versatility. With my system of two cheese fullers (drawing dies) and a drop on bottom table you reproduce much of the instant versatility of hand anvil and hammer. The drop on table can be dropped on and taken off as many times as required within a single heat rather than having to drive out wedges or undo bolts.I obviously agree that for specific processes / sequences various profiles on the one set of pallets may be required and advantageous. But for general purpose and versatility, combination dies are curiously wanting. They limit the sectional capacity of the hammer by about a third, the centre area being unusable. Of less import, you are invariably stressing one side of the hammer guides rather than keeping those stresses central.For the OP if there is an advantage to getting in extra tools at time of hammer purchase and shipping, then I would recommend a few extra sets of plain pallets which can be modified in the future to suit a given project.Alan Edited July 31, 2015 by Alan Evans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 H13 is tough, tougher than 1045. Let me ask though please, what size are the dies and what hammer and what size is it? thanks makes a difference.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. K. Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Out of curiosity what is the price difference between the two from the Chinese hammer MFG? Edited July 31, 2015 by Will. K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I have 4x7 dies on my #4 Beaudry, which are made from H13 - but that's only because the shop that made them for me had a lot of it laying around and they were able to HT it properly. I would have probably gone with 4140 or something similar if I had to do it on my own. With that said, the H13 has held up to 20 years of use on both hot forging and closed die work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I made a set for my 50 LG. from 4140 and they do nicely even against the test subject of a cold grade 5 bolt. I quenched them is warm fryer oil (canola) and heat treated to 400f for 3 hours in my shop toaster oven.I made it from a drop from loader pin stock I got from a machine shop. I cut and ground matching square blanks and welded them to bolt plates. It wasn't hard just time consuming, Dad was a machinist and I grew up around the stuff it wasn't even very finicky.Where I blew it was not recognizing a bolt coming loose while in use and it broke in the bottom dove tail. What a PITA trying to remove a work hardened grade 8 bolt that had been snapped and peined in place with a power hammer. <sigh> As a result my interchangeable dies have 1/2" holes and bolts so they only fit MY LG and not the rest of the gang's.One of these days I might make another set of dovetails or weld these up, drill and tap for 3/8" bolts like everybody else's but I'm kind of lazy.Anyway, heat treated 4140 works a treat in my hammer.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phabib Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 I've received a price of $270 for a flat die in H13. I asked for the prices of several dies in both materials, but haven't had a response yet. I figured that since the dies will never got that hot, I'd only be paying for the extra toughness with the H13. The reality of it is that this is a hobby machine and I doubt that I'll wear out even C45 dies.All of this would be for a 55lb hammer.Thank you all for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phabib Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 I got prices back on the dies. Prices are for C45/H13. It looks like the price for the H13 flat came down a few bucks.flat 50/200drawing 65/260fuller 80/320extreme drawing 80/320Cutting 75/300quick change 60. The quick change is a flat die with a hole in it for a stake tool to be inserted.The cutting die doesn't seem like it would get much use. I'll probably get a couple of extra flat dies to reshape or have as spares. I don't think I'll use the hammer enough to be worth dropping the money on the H13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Just make sure they do get heat treated - when I first received my dies the machine shop had neglected to HT so I set them into the hammer and promptly beat a bunch of divots into the surfaces. Had to send back for cleanup and HT; no problems since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.